Actually, I would specifically avoid teaching the “hybrid method” to folks as it can, with one wrong twist, lead to an evil impostor of the Butterfly Bend, as discussed here:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1259.msg8673#msg8673
and here:
Absolutely. I chose to twist in this manner to demonstrate that it can be done in one smooth step instead of the two steps required by the “two lines together” modification. My methods are about the ergonomics of the tying process (i.e. minimizing hand/finger movement, maintaining the hands in a natural/relaxed position, and transitioning seamlessly from one step to the next. With a little practice one can blur the steps together even more than what is shown in the video.
alpineer
I’m very familiar with the hybrid method. It’s what I use for tying the eyeloop.
alpineer
I’m not sure if I have enough information to fully understand and address your issue, but you might try/adapt this to your specific circumstance. [For eyeloop version only] If there’s enough slack in the rope, hang it over your R.wrist(for R.handers), so that your wrist is supporting the bight at the Turn. Now pick up the bight where it runs over your wrist (but keep your wrist in between the two hanging lines) and twist from the end. This may not work for you.
Now, for the bend version it couldn’t get any simpler. Just hold the paired ropes together with your R.hand and twist the ends with your Left. In other words if you don’t want the standing lines to twist, then twist the ends instead. You have options with this method.
alpineer
I’ve never recommended using the hybrid method for tying the the B.Bend.
I know you are bent on warning about this “evil imposter” but such a strong stance is unjustified IMO. Regarding the Loop version,yes, you can tie your so called evil imposter using the hybrid method, but that one wrong twist is so incredibly easy to distinguish from the only other option(the correct twist)(i.e. one way or the other) that I ask people to tie it wrongly so that they can see and feel the difference. They never forget the difference. So there is virtually no danger of ever tying it wrongly. Tying it wrongly disrupts the flow of the tying process when compared with the correct way. My guess is you are twisting the hanging lines together as a pair instead of crossing the one line over the other which maintains a smooth transition into the next step. This smooth transition doesn’t happen when you cross on the wrong side. So, you don’t have to remember which way is the correct way. Try both ways. There’s only two options here. The simplest, easiest way (the way that feels better in the hand) is the right way. Do this a few times and you will never forget.
alpineer
I was replying to knot4u. But regardless of that, why bother with a technique that allows an impostor when there are various methods that do not allow impostors and are just as easy or easier to employ?
Do you really want to append the above paragraph on how to avoid the impostor when presenting the method each time? Who’s to say all those caveats won’t be dropped when Bob shows it to Fred who shows it to Jane who shows it to who knows how many other people?
When you reply on a public forum you are replying to everyone who reads it. Do as you choose. The evil imposter is a complete non-issue regarding the hybrid method and any time unnecessarily spent teaching the “hybrid” will be a result of counteracting the negative propaganda you seem compelled to disseminate.
alpineer
To prevent an evil impostor, all I have to do is remember “cross in front, cross in front” as I’m using the hybrid method. At this point, I would have to try really hard to tie an evil impostor. I sometimes get the evil impostor if I do NOT use the hybrid method. I guess different brains think differently…
Thank You knot4u.
alpineer
What is the evil imposter? I didn’t know the Butterfly loop and Bend had one? Thanks in advance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeDQWDRkU44&feature=related
In the false (a.k.a. evil imposter) version the two overhands that make up the butterfly are not linked together and the knot readily begins to fall apart when the opposing lines are tensioned. It’s not easy to tie by the “twirly flop” method and may well be impossible to tie by the "three wraps on the hand " method, but you can tie it with the “hybrid” method by bringing the working line across the opposite side of the standing line. IIRC some cavers actually choose to tie the false butterfly for a particular application. I don’t recall the details.
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=1919.0
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/CSCA%20Publications/Knots%20A5.pdf item#18, pg.5
alpineer
Wow, you are too emotionally attached to this hybrid method. Since when are safety concerns “negative propaganda”?
When I saw the problems with the hybrid method, I scrubbed the methods I described on my page to make sure that they did not have similar weaknesses. I was prepared to pull any dangerous methods. You don’t seem to have a similar concern. You only seem prepared to whitewash safety problems.
More word twisting from you roo. I’m interested in facts and reason, not hearsay or folklore. Give up some hard facts such as deaths or injuries having occurred as a direct result of someone tying the false butterfly by mistake. I doubt there would be life threatening consequences from using the loop version of the false butterfly by mistake. The false bend is an entirely different situation, though, because of it’s open ended nature and the function it has to perform. IMO the hybrid method doesn’t lend itself so easily to tying the Butterfly Bend. The method described at the beginning of this post is far better for this purpose, and, although one can tie the false bend by it, the hand choreography is just too different and unwieldy to be tied accidentally.
alpineer
I can tie all of these bends properly, but I’ve now become paranoid of screwing them up. This whole thread supports my idea and opinion that the Zeppelin Bend and Zeppelin Loop are much better alternatives than either the Ashley or Butterfly Bend/Loop. There’s no well known evil imposter regarding the Zeppelin Bend. If you’re able to remember the p and q method, a child could tie the Zeppelin Bend.
I actually don’t understand how anyone could screw up the Butterfly Bend. Just make sure the the b and the d are either both pointing up or pointing down, then bring the tails through the shared hole. Am I wrong?
As long as you link the b and the d first, then you are correct.
alpineer
Are you sure? Test that theory on a few kids and get back with me. My niece (11) and nephew (15) screwed up the Zeppelin Bend after one week of not thinking about it.
Generally, all these knots of this type (e.g., Butterfly, Ashley, Zeppelin) are easy to screw up if you go into it thinking they’re super easy. The person may not screw up as they’re following pics, but I’m confident they’ll screw up a week later after not thinking about whatever method they’re using.
That’s O.K. They screw up, humble themselves, and then really learn it.
So you have to wait for deaths before you retract a method? The weaknesses discussed aren’t enough? But if you’re looking for life-threatening results, look around you. Already in this very thread we have someone (knot4u) adapting the impostor-producing hybrid method to tie a Butterfly Bend! :o
No, not at all roo. I’m suggesting to you that there haven’t been any deaths and there won’t be any in the future. As for knot4u, I’m confident that he can tie the bend correctly and not once tie it wrongly. And if he can do that, I’m sure he can teach anyone else to tie it correctly each and every time. I think you need to give more credit to people for their mental capabilities.
Unfortunately, your paranoid fear mongering has already spread on this very thread.
Btw, I do sincerely appreciate that you excluded the word “evil” in your previous post as that is what annoys me most of all. I would consider it just good healthy debate otherwise.
alpineer
The term “evil” with respect to impostor knot issues is intended to describe that the impostor has negative properties (insecurity or instability). There are impostor knots that are benign since they are approximately as secure as the knots they imitate. The terms are not intended to annoy or stir emotion.
You saying that you’re confident that people won’t mistie the hybrid method doesn’t make it so. Within the first dozen times I tried it via text description, I got the evil impostor half hitch loop. I’m not sure when it first happened since the two knots look very much alike. The only reason I caught it at all is because I’m a knot nerd. Most people would not catch it at all.
Learning the method wrong or having a mental lapse and reaching the wrong way will result in the impostor knot form and most people will not catch it. Let that sink in for a while. This would not be an issue if the same mental lapse created an obvious error.
The video instructions are pretty clear. I didn’t tie the knot wrong once. I also managed to tie it lefthanded on the very first attempt.
Compared to the one handed bowline method, I think this tying method of the Butterfly Bend is simpler and less prone to errors. I understand this method can be hard to use in small stuff, but so is the one handed bowline.