Bowline question

Practical Knots
1

Is there a bowline that brings the working end up around the standing part twice? I’m aware of the double bowline but that’s doubling the overhand loops, I’m talking about going down through the loop again and back around the standing part…creating a more secure and stronger version IMO. I’m sure this type exists as there’s MANY different types but what’s the name of it? Or have I discovered something VERY obvious??

2

Look for your knot in this document:

An Analysis of Bowlines, By Mark Gommers,

http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf

3

There are some “obvious” extensions to the bowline for adding
security which have only rather lately occurred to me (given how
long I’ve known of the bowline), and which the cited PDF document
presents. I think that you’re pointing to one of these, but am not
certain.

One can see the S.Part as having a loop in it and the tail being
brought back in to “collar” one side; well, the tail can extend
to collar the other side of this loop (which side is one eye leg),
and thereby get what I’ve dubbed a “Janus bowline” --as it has
the same face coming as going, so to speak (though I don’t think
that “Janus” needed sameness, just duality). Now, to your words,
that doesn’t really go around the S.Part twice.
Unless one then continues and repeats collaring of the S.Part and
so adds a 4th pass (on final tuck) through the nipping loop.

One can also take the tail of a normal bowline up around the
crossing part of the nipping loop and immediately back through
the loop, helping to bind the loop for security; this works well
in the Double Bowline, less well in the single, and YMMV per
cordage (I’ve seen it NOT work, in firm slick laid PP --all the
three loops (2 in S.Part, one with tail) just opened up, after
a while, seeming to taunt me, “Okay, wise guy, what else ya got?”!

And one can combine such things, maybe --just occurs to me now–
making the tail-wrap after the 2nd/eye-leg collaring!? This seems
to work well for security, the final, tail-wrap now having less of
a tight bend to cinch tight, and 4 diameters through the loop.]

And, further
. . . p o s s i b i l i t i e s . . .

–dl*

4

I saw one bowline in that series that came close to what I’m talking about but it was slightly different. What I’m playing with is creating the original bowline only doubling the finishing part of the knot. It could also work well with the double bowline.

From what I’ve seen of bowlines, it seems the overhand loop is the part that is tinkered with the most. I’ve seen double bowlines and triple bowlines, doubling and tripling the overhand loops to start the knot. I’m talking about doubling the finishing series of this knot, taking it up through the loop, around the standing part, back down into the hole and doing this once again for added security. I haven’t seen this done, but I’m sure it’s been done somewhere at some point…it’s just to obvious of a trick.

5

Which should make it pretty easy to describe what you’re thinking
of by reference to that. Words can work, if used well.

What I'm playing with is creating the original [i]bowline[/i] only doubling the finishing part of the knot.

You need better words here. At the finish of the common bowline,
the tail is ; how do you get it back to “double” its finish?
(I guess you can just u-turn --even leaving a large enough bight
to serve qua eye-- and go back around the S.Part and tucked out
again.)

it seems the [u]overhand loop[/u] ...

To my mind, there is no such thing (which requires some base
of reference for the “over”(/“under”) aspect needed here). Yeah,
I know that this is how some books describe tying and so on, but
I find it unhelpful, and of course confusing vis-a-vis the knot
of the same or similar name.
.:. “loop” suffices, and depending upon reference it could be seen as over/under.

I've seen [i]double bowlines[/i] and [i][u]triple[/u] bowlines,[/i] doubling and tripling the overhand loops to start the knot.
I've only seen the former (and can imagine the latter and worse easily enough). Usually, "triple bowline" refers to a knot in which there are 3 eyes --pointing to the confusion of knotting nomenclature! (I can think of a dressing of some [i]"triple bowline"[/i] as you indicate that might make sense, but it's certainly not something that has been elsewhere presented; I have tested such a [i]double bowline[/i] dressing (did okay).)
I'm talking about doubling the finishing series of this knot, taking it up through the loop, around the standing part, back down into the hole

and doing this once again for added security.

Which is precisely (without further detail) what I described above,
which on the u-turn for “doing this once again” makes an eye.
It would make more sense to use a Janus turn & then tuck and
repetition of the S.Part collaring; but I don’t see great benefit
to the latter. A double bowline with a Janus finish seems amply
stable, easily tied & inspected, and easily untied when desired
(not as easily tied as the single bowline, alas).

And it should be noted that at least one bowline that fits
this general “double” definition is the “painter’s bowline” --in
which one finishes the knot (penetrates the loop) with a bight
and so has the twin parts doubling, and the 2nd eye.

–dl*

6

OK, but if you modify the ending too much, then applying “Bowline” to the name starts not to make sense anymore. Let’s define characteristics that all Bowlines should have in order to earn the word “Bowline” in the name. It appears that a Bowline needs at least these two characteristics:
(1) at least one pre-loop forming a hole, and
(2) a rabbit coming up the hole, around the tree, and back down the hole.

From my examination, all the knots on the following web page have those two characteristics in common:
http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf

By the way, the start of the Bowline is not an Overhand. It’s better described as a Loop, Full Turn, Wrap or a Round Turn. A nice thing about a Bowline is that, in fact, it does not require a pre-knot Overhand at the start. When you say Overhand, I start thinking Zeppelin Loop.

7

I have given my definition of a [i]bowline[/i] : a central nipping loop
with the end leading into the eye. I realize now that this then leaves
the water & mirrored bowlines as quasi-bowlines, since their initial
S.Part loop feeds into another, not exactly directly into the eye.
I’d rather leave open the way this nipping structure is closed,
whether by the bight-collar of the common bowline, or by the
quick round turn of the “Myrtle” bowline. And for some cases,
such as Ashley’s #1033 Carrick loop, I can see fuzzy boundaries
of geometry with something I’d rather see considered based on
a crossing knot.

And I see good use of the “quasi-bowline” sub-class, as those are
the sorts of knots that can hold in HPME cordage.

By the way, the start of the Bowline is not an Overhand.

I discussed this point; this is in accordance with longstanding
knot-formation definitions used in knots books. And I, too,
think that it’s best NOT used.

–dl*

8

To remove ambiguity, could you attach a diagram? Any old Paint-like program will allow you to quickly draw something. It doesn’t have to be smooth or artistic.