Composing Forum Rules & Guidelines

Reading your arguments Roo, perhaps we DO need some rules - but only rules mind you - not guidance, I don’t think even you would be so arrogant as to presume to tell members how to think, and that is what guidance amounts to.

Rules like - Don’t Troll - Don’t swear or be vicious to others - Don’t feed the Trolls - Don’t Spam - Don’t break the law - Don’t post Porno or anything that would not be appropriate for children to read…

However, there seems to be a recurring theme to your thrusts…

Would I be correct in thinking that behind your proposal is a desire to eliminate ‘Hijacking’? You repeatedly feature the activity as reprehensible.

At first I thought maybe someone had ‘Hijacked’ one of your threads, so I trawled back through all the boards and could not find a single thread that you might consider as being ‘yours’ to have been hijacked. One of your threads did have a lengthy reply from me (ca 15 lines on my screen), but I kept fully on topic, and later, Dan made an even lengthier reply but again stayed hard on topic.

From this I had to conclude that you are not aiming to protect your own threads - you are seeking to prevent hijacking of other peoples threads. This worries me, because it is a form of ‘Big Brother’, deciding for me what I should and should not want to happen to my threads !!

Two things immediately fall out from that position.

First, is that whenever I have started a thread, I have never thought of them as ‘mine’ - simply as ideas spawned, then set free onto the Forum to see how they grow and develop - once created, they belong to the Forum and the contributors who make them their own by adding their own thoughts and directions - ‘Poo Sticks’ cast into the stream of experiences and imagination.

Second, apart from Spamming and Trolling (both of which I think are despicable practices), I find the greatest value in posts which have triggered members into presenting wildly divergent perspectives to the subject that triggered the thread. For me, the most interesting posts are the ones which range over wild diversifications, triggered by other posters experiences and opinions.

Clearly, what I enjoy reading as content, you see as hijacking. This I think is a fundamental difference of opinion. You wish for Rules to prevent and remove such richness, while I would strive to encourage members to let their creativity fly. Clearly, there is no common ground for agreement on this issue - they are in opposition so no compromise is possible.

Decisions then must be made on rational argument. I would propose that the case for promoting creativity in posts rests on the fact that this Guild wishes to actively encourage today’s (and tomorrows) youth to be attracted to the Guild and to the field of Knotting. I suggest that while we dusty old farts might enjoy a bit of knotty minutia, younger members (should we continue to attract them) would be more likely to be engaged by less ‘dusty’ discussions. ‘On topic Experts’ can be totally foreboding and frighten ‘Newbies’ out of the discussion and even the board, whereas broadening a discussion gives a greater opportunity for other, less expert knotters, to join in.

I would strongly suggest that we reject any idea of straight jacketing topics to the subject title, and that we actively promote responses from widely differing perspectives - you never know, the old fogies might just learn something (maybe even enjoy themselves).

PS - have you played Poo Sticks lately?

Derek

So suggesting picking a relevant topic name, for example, amounts to telling people how/what to think? I don’t agree.

However, there seems to be a recurring theme to your thrusts...

Would I be correct in thinking that behind your proposal is a desire to eliminate ‘Hijacking’? You repeatedly feature the activity as reprehensible.

At first I thought maybe someone had ‘Hijacked’ one of your threads, so I trawled back through all the boards and could not find a single thread that you might consider as being ‘yours’ to have been hijacked. One of your threads did have a lengthy reply from me (ca 15 lines on my screen), but I kept fully on topic, and later, Dan made an even lengthier reply but again stayed hard on topic.

From this I had to conclude that… [snipped long histrionic rambling based on a false presumption]


I’m just using a clear example. You’re trying far too hard to read into things. It’s OK to ask a question and wait for a response rather than inventing an answer and running 10 miles on it.

AH, we need some Rules of Order, here!

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and … rude comments and innuendo.

I sense a rude personal innuendo just uttered, above!
Unless I’m missing the point that had there been a rule about Stay On Topic
then those long histrionic ramblings would’ve been “snipped” by a Moderator
and not have wasted my time!!
And yet, suddenly, an almost irresistable urge comes over me to digress
into discussion of rulers, and have they always been 12 inches long?
As for Guidelines, how about waist lines: obesity from the modern diet?
But now I’m just wasting lines …

:wink:

Would this be the basis for yet another rule to add to the list? Rule No. xxx - There will be no rhetorical questions, only proper questions (authorised by a moderator) which must then wait for a reply.

I feel that there are no rational arguments now being put forward as to why we need rules, other than the dogma that ‘Most Forums have Rules’ and the inverted argument that ‘If they are not broken, then they won’t be an issue’. Against this is a consensus that the other posters do not want rules, do not want the Forums vibrancy to be muted by well intentioned interventions, but perhaps most importantly, there is no value in wasting time creating and implementing rules that we neither need nor want.

Perhaps in the future, if the nature of the Forums members changes, there might be value in revisiting a need for rules and making some up then if there is a real value to be had.

Derek

Dear All

I am a little bit fuzzy on dates, but I have an idea that the Registration Agreement below is something which came in around the same time that Lesley handed over to me (which was a process of several months). I seem to think that solely because I can’t remember reading it when I joined. But then again - because I always intend to use a forum or other agreement-required facility with the very best of intentions and courtesy, I don’t always consider it necessary to read all the way through an agreement before I sign it. I trust my own integrity that it will cover all the expectations, and I will simply be guilty of unpardonable ignorance if I make some mistake (such as in subject heading formats for the Freecycle Group).

Registration Agreement:

"You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.

Note that it is impossible for the staff or the owners of this forum to confirm the validity of posts. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the posted messages, and as such, are not responsible for the content contained within. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information presented. The posted messages express the views of the author, and not necessarily the views of this forum, its staff, its subsidiaries, or this forum’s owner. Anyone who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to notify an administrator or moderator of this forum immediately. The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realize that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. This policy applies to member profile information as well.

You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages. Furthermore, you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the owners of this forum, any related websites to this forum, its staff, and its subsidiaries. The owners of this forum also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.

You have the ability, as you register, to choose your username. We advise that you keep the name appropriate. With this user account you are about to register, you agree to never give your password out to another person except an administrator, for your protection and for validity reasons. You also agree to NEVER use another person’s account for any reason. We also HIGHLY recommend you use a complex and unique password for your account, to prevent account theft.

After you register and login to this forum, you will be able to fill out a detailed profile. It is your responsibility to present clean and accurate information. Any information the forum owner or staff determines to be inaccurate or vulgar in nature will be removed, with or without prior notice. Appropriate sanctions may be applicable.

Please note that with each post, your IP address is recorded, in the event that you need to be banned from this forum or your ISP contacted. This will only happen in the event of a major violation of this agreement.

Also note that the software places a cookie, a text file containing bits of information (such as your username and password), in your browser’s cache. This is ONLY used to keep you logged in/out. The software does not collect or send any other form of information to your computer."

These are ‘the rules of the Forum’ as they stand at present. And the option of putting them as a sticky at the top of each board is open to us, but who would actually go and read them regularly? If the contributors to this topic agree, I can certainly do that for a trial period (say 1 month) and if they garner a significant number more views than the number of contributors on this topic, then it can be said that, yes, people look at them. I can check this easily, I keep a simple table log which I update each time, of when a board was last posted on. It helps if I know I don’t have to look at a board which hasn’t been posted on recently. I’ll just add another line for that topic, and track how many views it had on which dates. There will probably be a flurry of views immediately, which can be somewhat discounted, but it’s what happens after that which will really show up the response to having ‘the rules’ available all the time.

All those in favour, please signify… all those against, please be brief :wink:

Regards

Glenys

Hi Glenys,

Could they not be posted in the ‘Announcements’ board only.

There are only 30 posts in there, and it is the place for ‘Important announcements’, so it could be put at the top should anyone want to go read it.

I have to admit, that I had not spotted the bit about indemnifying the ‘owner’. I would not be able to do that, so I guess that I will have to cease posting.

Derek

Ah, so we DO have rules like other forums. The only difference is that ours are not accessible and condensed. A condensed “sticky post” in a prominent place (not the Announcement Board) would do it. I’m in favor.

Derek, if you think that inventing answers for others is equivalent to a rhetorical question, I’m not going to be able to help you.

you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the owners …

Ah, the lovely task of trying to figure sense of legalese.
I take this to be typical redundant talk, and an expresssion
that says as much and no more than its “hold harmless” part.
– i.e., it implies nothing about “indemnify” in the sense of
compensation (and esp. that sense seems to require a preposition
“for/against/from”).

–dl*

Barry, as the one with legal experience, what is your take on this statement from the Registration Agreement -

“Furthermore, you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the owners of this forum, any related websites to this forum, its staff, and its subsidiaries.”

If it doesn’t mean anything as Dan suggests, then why is it there?

Thanks
Derek

This seems to be a way of saying that if you cause loss or damage in the future to the forum owners through what you have done then you promise to make good their loss (ie to indemnify them). This might arise if as a result of your posting a libelous statement the forum owners become liable as the owners of the vehicle used to publish the statement - but note that earlier this set of rules says that use of the forum is governed by International and US law which may be significantly different from UK law - the phrase “hold harmless” is one I have not come across in the UK but it may be common in US legal agreements and “harmless” here means free from harm ie undamaged; in the UK the word is used to indicate someone or something not capable of causing harm which is somewhat different.

Barry

In the US Hold harmless refers to accepting liability for ones actions which cause claims for damages to be brought on another person or entity. Indemnify refers to paying for any damages awarded to that other party. It may seem redundant but it merely reflects the two prongs of the issue, liability and paying for it. As noted in my prior post, I think it is remote from a practical stand point for anyone using the forum for its legitimate purposes.

CL

My Vote > No rules need be be posted. I think this thread has opened enough eyes to the subject.

And if you can’t seem to remember to be civil, please keep your eyes closed and stay home.

Scott

…or more preferably get a good knotting book and keep your fingers busy doing something other than posting?

I don’t know where the format for the registration came from. Possibly it was suggested by the forum hosts, who are probably American, and that’s why it has the slight US slant to the law clause, rather than a UK slant. I suppose, in addition to being the Guild’s longest running branch meeting, we are also the most non-geographical, suspended out there, amongst the satellite waves and the ether particles, just held together by a few busy electrons… am I digressing?

So far we appear to have two ayes and 1 no. Voting concludes Monday evening :slight_smile: For the trial run I would simply sticky it to all boards, and count the views.

Regards

Glenys

Glenys,

Just in case you counted me as a yes, my vote is NO.

The rider was, if the yes’s won, then could it go to the Announcements board.

Derek

My vote is No

“Rules? We don’t need no stinking rules!” Except maybe the Golden Rule, it doesn’t stink. lol

Just repeating my no.

Forum Registration Agreement
Just to clarify, there has always been a registration agreement in place on this forum and its previous incarnation. New forum members must signify their agreement to this document as part of the registration process. To the best of my knowledge, the agreement has not been altered since this forum’s inception. If it was, I would personally recommend that the updated version was posted on the Announcements board.

Forum Mods
It has been suggested that the current mods have a less than high profile. I hope they accept this for the compliment that it is. Good moderators don’t need to draw attention to themselves. They work quietly - often in the background - to try and ensure that most forum users are able to continue their discussions without unwanted distractions. They only intervene when they consider it to be absolutely necessary. Over-zealous intervention only provokes bad feeling, in my experience.

Posting Guidelines
Some online communities do have formal posting guidelines but this is most commonly seen in forums with a very high turnover. In comparison, this forum has a low turnover and a well-established core community. That said, publishing, guidelines does nothing. At the end of the day, it is the social pressures within a community that determines what is, and what is not, acceptable. Formal guidelines are rarely read by newcomers - not even if you make the post sticky and decorate it with flashing lights that spell “Please read first”. Frequently, the only time a Posting Guidelines document comes in useful is when it’s used to hit someone over the head during an argument and that rarely works out well, in my experience.

If there were frequent and ongoing problems with behaviour on the forum, then, yes, I think there might be a case for publically clarifying what is, or isn’t allowed. But I’ve not seen any evidence of such problems. What I have seen is people sorting out their own problems and disagreements in a fairly reasonable and mature manner. Should that change in the future, perhaps I might revise my opinion but, for now, I think that the forum’s users are adult enough to control their own posting behaviour.

But the dictionaries – and here I’m referring to Garner’s [u]A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage
and [u]Black’s Law Dictionary (5th ed.) – give these BUT ALSO purely redundant
definitions. Actually, the former gives “hold harmless;” as one, among several; the latter
is what says that a preposition “for/against” is called for. But note that the clause at issue
here had no indemnify from/for particulars, and so IMO is overly vague.

In the situation here, I might post something that causes offense to some
third party, who sues IGKT.net:

  1. by agreement does the clause say that I will recompense IGKT.net
    for any losses;
    1b) does it suggest that (all) other users should contribute, too?

  2. or does it say rather that the suit is wrongly aimed by the third
    party, who is part of the agreement, and must not seek redress
    vs. IGKT.net, only (somehow) against me, the poster?

I agree that in practicality all of the above seems beyond the realm
of possibility (though, egads, wild lawsuits are surely not – I’m not
sure e.g. of the status of the some-time “judge” who sued a cleaners
for some $50million (10^^6) over lost or botched pants (which sadly
got into court system and though overruled did put the Korean cleaners
out of business).

–dl*

I think there is an unanswered question here - who does own the forum? Presumably the owners of the software have no reponsibility for its usage? If, as I suspect, the IGKT as a body owns the forum (as it, as far as I know, owns the domain name igkt.net) then it is for the Council to decide whether to have rules and what they should be - and as the IGKT is a UK based charity those rules should presumably be governed by UK and where appropriate Internstionsl law. I am still not in favour of rules of etiquette (the basics that govern joining and using the forum along the lines of the registration agreement - and I agree with Dan here - should be written in plain English and not simply lifted from elsewhere).

Barry