# Double Dragon vs. Double-tucked Angler
**URL:** https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378
**Category:** General Discussion
**Created:** [18 December 2004 18:47 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378 "2004-12-18T18:47:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Fairlead](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/Fairlead)
#### Post date: [11 January 2005 23:51 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/21 "2005-01-11T23:51:55Z")
At the risk of going well-off thread, the Highwayman’s Hitch could well do with being forgotten, IMO. It was taught to Commando Forces during WW2 for a specific purpose (nothing to do with horses). It was intended for use with a standard 6 foot toggle rope.
Breton,
I don’t know where you got this information from (but having researched this subject I am anxious to find out) but…There is no reference to the Highwayman’s Hitch, or anything like it (Lever Hitch is nearest) in the Royal Marine Training Pamphlet. No. 1 - Use of Toggle Ropes - 1944. And IMHO it would be very difficult to tie a HWMH in only six feet of two and a half inch (circ) rope.
Gordon
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### Author:  [@system](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/system)
#### Post date: [12 January 2005 10:42 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/22 "2005-01-12T10:42:40Z")
Information on this subject today can be found in Fairbairn’s ‘Get Tough’ by Paladin Press (also available in various non-copyright forms on the web), Section 26 (p80, et seq).
CAUTION: This is not a book for the squeamish. It is the unarmed combat syllabus taught to thousands in the Army (not just RM) commandos, SOE and various raiding forces from 1940 onwards. In it’s basic form, the knot may easily be tied with a single 6’ toggle.
Is that RM pamphlet generally available, Gordon?
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### Author:  [@Mike](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/Mike)
#### Post date: [1 February 2005 06:23 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/23 "2005-02-01T06:23:35Z")
im confused. could someone post a picture of the unstable version of the DD and the stable version so I will know wich one I should learn.
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### Author:  [@DaveRoot](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/DaveRoot)
#### Post date: [1 February 2005 18:15 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/24 "2005-02-01T18:15:45Z")
> im confused. could someone post a picture of the unstable version of the DD and the stable version so I will know wich one I should learn.
Mike,
In the Double Dragon, the working end of the rope goes twice around: [http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots\_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon](http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon).
However, I had played around with a slipped version in which the working end goes once around, then a bight is pushed through the knot in order to slip it. This version is quick and easy to tie, and it “explodes” (comes completely apart) when the end is pulled (hence the name “Exploding Dragon”).
I asked Paul Kruse about it (the guy who named the Double Dragon), and he felt that it had similar strength as the Double Dragon due to the two strands of rope which passed through the center of the knot.
I think the issue which Dan brought up was that it is easy to tie this “Exploding Dragon” improperly, leading to a very insecure knot. At least, that’s what I understood from his comment:
> Dave, in the double version, the instability is diminished to the extent of perhaps insignificance; in the single version, however, it's a real concern.
Dan, correct me if I have misquoted your concern!
Since this “Exploding Dragon” is easy to tie improperly and insecurely, I removed it from [http://www.layhands.com/knots](http://www.layhands.com/knots).
Dave
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### Author:  [@system](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/system)
#### Post date: [1 February 2005 23:58 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/25 "2005-02-01T23:58:19Z")
> im confused. could someone post a picture of the unstable version of the DD and the stable version so I will know wich one I should learn.
As previously written, the DD is pretty stable in EITHER version --the double wrap providing good support (do pull that snug).
But in the SINGLE version–which the Exploding (i.e., slipped) was–,
the stability issue arises.
Now, for a picture, go to the DD link and see the orientation of it
that would be UNstable were one to pull out the 2nd wrap of
the end (try it and see).
In the tying step shown in the 2nd photo (from left), where the end
has begun to wrap a bight, one would lay the end OVER that bight
and wrap the opposite direction for the more stable version.
Paul has warned against the Single D. based on the orientation used
for the DD; but going this opposite way yields a Single D. that is
adequately stable in many materials.
(In dressing this other version, the end as it enters the knot after forming
the eye–here I’m not referring to Dave’s shown tying method with the bight,
but just to the finished knot, in analysis–will lie against the standing
part. The bitter end will be pinched between these two parts.
–dl\*
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### Author:  [@system](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/system)
#### Post date: [2 February 2005 00:06 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/26 "2005-02-02T00:06:53Z")
> However, I had played around with a slipped version in which the working end goes once around, then a bight is pushed through the knot in order to slip it. This version is quick and easy to tie, and it "explodes" (comes completely apart) when the end is pulled (hence the name "Exploding Dragon"). ... I think the issue which Dan brought up was that it is easy to tie this "Exploding Dragon" improperly, leading to a very insecure knot.
Well, that the knot properly tied enough will STILL be vulnerable to distortion, capsizing.
> Since this "Exploding Dragon" is easy to tie improperly and insecurely, I removed it from http://www.layhands.com/knots.
But you could simply replace it with the other version, and therein remark about the stability, and even show the stable Single D. The issue is better addressed outright, showing all, than by only taking away the dangerous form. (writes he not doing the maintenance! :-)
–dll\*
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### Author:  [@knudeNoggin](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/knudeNoggin)
#### Post date: [11 January 2005 21:17 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/27 "2005-01-11T21:17:55Z")
> At the risk of going well-off thread,
Let me assist in that--have a new Subject to itself!
> the Highwayman's Hitch could well do with being forgotten, IMO. It was taught to Commando Forces during WW2 for a specific purpose (nothing to do with horses). It was intended for use with a standard 6 foot toggle rope.
Where can one find this information? My recollection is that the knot is given by C.L.Day's [u][i]Art of Knotting & Splicing[/i][/u], with the myth(?) about being used by a notorious robber (himself somewhat of a myth). Day's work is ca. post-WWII by just a couple years--enough time to build a myth that passes him?
So, how did the commandos use it?
> Although taught as a 'Highwayman's Hitch', there are significant differences (use of a martyr and an overhand locking knot) so we might perhaps re-name the version shown in 'Get Tough'and elsewhere as the 'Commando Knot'.
I don't follow this: what are the differences with the knot (too) commonly shown.
_knudeNoggin_
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### Author:  [@knudeNoggin](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/knudeNoggin)
#### Post date: [13 January 2005 01:23 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/double-dragon-vs-double-tucked-angler/2378/28 "2005-01-13T01:23:46Z")
> Information on this subject today can be found in Fairbairn's 'Get Tough' by Paladin Press (also available in various non-copyright forms on the web), Section 26 (p80, et seq).
Well, I see that the use of the knot is quite different from a slip-free hitch: rather, the would-be slip-tuck's eye is used to secure a person's arm! One pulls this part tight on a prisoner's arm (the knot having been tied around the other arm, say), then ties off the ends (with a Reef).
_knudeNoggin_
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