# Hacking the figure of eight

**URL:** <https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538>\
**Category:** Knotting Concepts & Explorations\
**Created:** [4 December 2022 13:06 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538 "2022-12-04T13:06:24Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/kost_greg/32/5747_2.png) [@kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/kost_greg)\
**Post date:** [4 December 2022 13:06 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/1 "2022-12-04T13:06:24Z")

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The idea is to create a two entangled, crossing knot form of the figure eight, which appears to be less prone to jamming, than a conventional eight scheme.

The first phase is to flip one of the collars of the clasical 8 for the lowermost, first image formation, as i have pointed out in other threads too.

The second, more advanced step, is to insert the proper bight toggle, through this very 8-form, to showcase this particular, crossing knot geometry (uppermost, second,third image). No slippage occured with this loading option, with a rather easily adjusted returning structure, and no jamming issues.

The EEL quality emerges, if we denature the returning bight into a loop, by tucking WE back through the collar as usually.

Although not TIB, this reversed 8-based bowline (fourth image), has actually three rope diameters inside the nipping loop, with two returning collars that are easy to handle after heavy loading.

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 ![Figure eight forms.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/3/37471909c2b486982e4c2442a14b9aaf16f404ae.jpeg)

 ![Bight_loop hitched 8_front.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/3/31bd9914f0276ac7bfcc6070d333a6ff9acb1e71.jpeg)

 ![Bight_loop hitched 8_back.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/d/de555abafa50e8e96aad5ee3afce88d95616f694.jpeg)

 ![8_hitched_bowline.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/1/179e91bf208672fbea603b2991d74c3853645081.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Lehman](https://discourse.igkt.net/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Dan\_Lehman](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/Dan_Lehman)\
**Post date:** [4 December 2022 17:42 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/2 "2022-12-04T17:42:24Z")

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> [@Kost\_Greg post:1](#):
>
> The idea is to create a two entangled, crossing knot form of the figure eight,  
> which appears to be less prone to jamming, than a conventional eight scheme.

I’d go for more of a two turNip’d base vs. crossing knot.  
Note that from the mid-flype geometry of the fig.8, one  
can finagle by copious dressing the mid-line eye knot  
briefly featured in the recently posted-about Butterfly  
knot testing (where this is-at-base-an-8 knot is wrongly  
ID’d as #1452 --it is #1408 (and I think Ryan actually  
starts one test with #1407).

# –dl\*

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**Author:** ![kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/kost_greg/32/5747_2.png) [@kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/kost_greg)\
**Post date:** [9 December 2022 20:03 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/3 "2022-12-09T20:03:29Z")

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Hey, Dan, deep down i think you liked this bight interweaving with the flipped eight form, as much as i did. ::).

Nice way of restraining efficiently the returning line within the 8 nub (instead of a post or cleat). If i’m not mistaken, this action is called “snubbing the line”.

I could picture this bight form that weaves through the crossing knots, as a closed loop, formed with a different rope, and attached in a tensionless way to an anchor without taking any shock load.

Moreover, if one interlaces the stability of a figure eight with the jam resistance of a bowline, the result might be very promising.

As for Mr.Ryan, he did a great work with his butterfly test video, i guess he gained one more rightful subscription :).

I also learned that heavy BTL loading of the butterfly eye or bend, is not to be trusted.

However, i believe that investigating butterfly’s jam resistance, only in BTL loading (and not eye to eye), is half of the work.

Who would expect that the false butterfly would be so strong? :o :🙂

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**Author:** ![kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/kost_greg/32/5747_2.png) [@kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/kost_greg)\
**Post date:** [16 June 2023 18:52 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/4 "2023-06-16T18:52:35Z")

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Anti-janus eight bowline

As a janus bowline enthousiast, i really support the technique of extending the concept of a bowline collar, with a second one that captures the out-going eye leg.

Besides the security enhancement with the additional tail maneuvering, and the three rope diameters inside the nipping loop, there are actually two access points (collars) for nub decompression, after heavy loading.

This is kind of reverse approach (anti-janus), starting first with the eye leg collar formation, and then continuing with the rest of the conventional maneuvering, collaring the SP.

It’s like forming a two times bowline, first an anti-bowline, then normal, at the same configuration.

One of the strongest bowline structures i have come accross, much stronger than the conventional janus bowlines, but yet rather manageable at slackening after hard strain i suppose.

Thinking in reverse, i think it might be another decent way to stabilise a flipped eight (anti-8), with a simple loop returning structure, as it was demonstrated in the OP.

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 ![anti-janus eight bowline_loose.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/e/e29502a47dac8d2308d658b7e553394e89faecf9.jpeg)

 ![anti-janus eight bowline_front.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/9/991590ce984ff711c11cc03b6772f706031c2313.jpeg)

 ![anti-janus eight bowline_back.JPG](https://discourse.igkt.net/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6356e16852cb60051a88df5db0eb1e8bf8872407.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![alana](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/alana/32/5738_2.png) [@alana](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/alana)\
**Post date:** [19 June 2023 01:54 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/5 "2023-06-19T01:54:37Z")

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… these are knots i have to get my mind around,  
but i have an aunty Janice, so i’ll remember the name

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**Author:** ![kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/kost_greg/32/5747_2.png) [@kost\_greg](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/kost_greg)\
**Post date:** [19 June 2023 13:01 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/6 "2023-06-19T13:01:15Z")

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The Janus term, is not of my own invention, i think it was first introduced by Dan Lehman, to define a dual collar component bowline, a quite catchy descriptor, if you ask me.

> **[Janus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus)**
>
> In ancient Roman religion and myth, Janus (/ˈdʒeɪnəs/ JAY-nəs; Latin: Iānus \[ˈi̯aːnʊs\]) is the god of beginnings, gates, transitions, time, duality, doorways, passages, frames, and endings. He is usually depicted as having two faces. The month of January is named for Janus (Ianuarius). According to ancient Roman farmers' almanacs, Juno was mistaken as the tutelary deity of the month of January, but Juno is the tutelary deity of the month of June.
> Janus presided over the beginning and ending of...

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**Author:** ![alana](https://discourse.igkt.net/user_avatar/discourse.igkt.net/alana/32/5738_2.png) [@alana](https://discourse.igkt.net/u/alana)\
**Post date:** [19 June 2023 20:34 UTC](https://discourse.igkt.net/t/hacking-the-figure-of-eight/7538/7 "2023-06-19T20:34:28Z")

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(oh, now i think it’s pronounced ‘yarnus’ … ☺)