Help with several things, please?

Practical Knots
1

In an effort to figure out a solution to one problem I’m trying to solve, I stumbled across this forum. I’m glad I found it, because I have a number of ongoing knot-related problems, some of which have been bothering me for years, in addition to the one I’m having today. So after browsing for a while and being unable to find what I needed, I decided to sign up and see if I can get all of my questions answered in the same place.

I’m going to list the most urgent question first, and then the rest after that will be listed in order of the length of time I’ve been having them. Here goes:

Problem #1:
In order to work on a (stage) lighting crew, which I need to be ready to do by this Sunday (Sept. 9), I need to have a crescent wrench that I can attach to my body so it won’t fall if I drop it on people’s heads while working up on a ladder or lift or something. There are three components to this equation: the wrench itself, a keychain-type carabiner that I will be able to clip onto my belt loop, and the tieline that will connect the wrench to the carabiner. I have enough tieline that I can have a complete loop through the wrench and the carabiner and still be able to reach my arm out all the way, so I do want to have the complete loop.
I could just loop the tieline through the wrench and the carabiner and tie it together with a normal knot, but that presents three issues: the fact that the knot will probably come untied because the tieline is pretty thick and doesn’t like to stay knotted, the fact that the carabiner will be sliding around and probably flipping in “circles” as well, and the fact that the knot will be able to slide around as well, so I may end up having issues with the knot interfering with the easy movement of the wrench. So here’s what I want to actually do. The most important thing is that all components are as secure as possible. I want it to be more likely for my belt loop to break off than for the knot to come undone. But also, I want the tieline to simply run through the hole on the crescent wrench, so no knots over there, and I want to minimize the possibility of a knot deciding to go over there. However, I don’t want the carabiner to be able to slide around, but I don’t want to be completely unable to move it either. I want to be able to manipulate it freely, but I don’t want it to end up down by the wrench if I grab the middle of the tieline. So what I was wondering is if there’s a way that I can use one knot to both close the circle of tieline and create a little loop where I can clip the carabiner, and if so, I need to know how to accomplish that. If there are other ways to accomplish what I need to do, I’m open to suggestions.

Problem #2: I’m sure there are better places I could ask this, but I figured I’d just throw it in with all of these while I’m here. I sew, but I don’t have a sewing machine. Since I do mostly mending and alterations, as well as occasional embroidery, having to do everything by hand isn’t too much of an issue. The only issue I encounter is tying it off at the end. I have been totally unable to figure out a way that I can tie a secure knot (i.e. not an embroidery knot) that will be against the fabric without going through it if I pull. The best I can do is to cut the thread near the needle rather than near the fabric and then tie like five knots, but that wastes a ton of thread and I really don’t like to do that. Any ideas?

Problem #3: I have an anklet that I wear all day every day. It has sentimental meaning to me and I don’t like to take it off. However, I do occasionally have to remove it, which I do by slipping it off over my foot. It is handmade, but it originally had thread and so it wouldn’t fit over my foot on the rare occasions that I do have to take it off. I replaced the thread with elastic, but it really doesn’t like to stay tied. And of course, since it undergoes a lot of abuse, the elastic sometimes snaps. Each time the elastic snaps, it takes me a good week of terror before I’m able to stop re-tying the knot every few minutes. Sometimes the knot still comes undone even when I put superglue on it (which I don’t like to do because then I get superglue all over my ankle.) So what is a secure knot that I can use to tie a piece of thin elastic into a circle? (note: I don’t have a lot of room to work here because there are beads on the anklet and I generally tie it straight onto my ankle to make sure it’s the best size possible.)

Problem #4: I also have a key that I wear around my neck on a really thin leather cord every day. The cord is long enough that I can slip it on and off over my head. Knots are ugly, so I keep the knot at the back of my neck under my hair so no one can see it. The problem with that is that the knot likes to eat my hair. So every time I remove the key from around my neck, some of my hair comes with it and the knot is pretty disgusting by now (not to mention the fact that having hair pulled out is painful!) Is there a knot that won’t pull my hair out? I mean, it’s not like I’m tying the knot near my hair. It just sits there and pulls out my hair. Any way to avoid that?

I’m sorry for the long post, and I’m sorry if these questions have already been answered somewhere that I couldn’t find. Thanks in advance for your help!

~Amy

2

Sorry, no answer here. But in order to discuss each item of yours, they would be better in separate threads. That also aids in searching for solutions like those by the next one in need.

3

Having plenty of line is poor justification for making a sling (circle) when one line from the carabiner to the wrench will work. Also, don’t put up with suboptimal rope. Rope is cheap. Get the right size and get something that tolerates knots. Then, with this single line, put a Gnat Hitch at the carabiner and another Gnat Hitch at the wrench:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

Problem #2: I'm sure there are better places I could ask this, but I figured I'd just throw it in with all of these while I'm here. I sew, but I don't have a sewing machine. Since I do mostly mending and alterations, as well as occasional embroidery, having to do everything by hand isn't too much of an issue. The only issue I encounter is tying it off at the end. I have been totally unable to figure out a way that I can tie a secure knot (i.e. not an embroidery knot) that will be against the fabric without going through it if I pull. The best I can do is to cut the thread near the needle rather than near the fabric and then tie like five knots, but that wastes a ton of thread and I really don't like to do that. Any ideas?
If the thread is the appropriate size, the following technique works for me: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=947.msg6331#msg6331
Problem #3: I have an anklet that I wear all day every day. It has sentimental meaning to me and I don't like to take it off. However, I do occasionally have to remove it, which I do by slipping it off over my foot. It is handmade, but it originally had thread and so it wouldn't fit over my foot on the rare occasions that I do have to take it off. I replaced the thread with elastic, but it really doesn't like to stay tied. And of course, since it undergoes a lot of abuse, the elastic sometimes snaps. Each time the elastic snaps, it takes me a good week of terror before I'm able to stop re-tying the knot every few minutes. Sometimes the knot still comes undone even when I put superglue on it (which I don't like to do because then I get superglue all over my ankle.) So what is a secure knot that I can use to tie a piece of thin elastic into a circle? (note: I don't have a lot of room to work here because there are beads on the anklet and I generally tie it straight onto my ankle to make sure it's the best size possible.)
Try this: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
Problem #4: I also have a key that I wear around my neck on a really thin leather cord every day. The cord is long enough that I can slip it on and off over my head. Knots are ugly, so I keep the knot at the back of my neck under my hair so no one can see it. The problem with that is that the knot likes to eat my hair. So every time I remove the key from around my neck, some of my hair comes with it and the knot is pretty disgusting by now (not to mention the fact that having hair pulled out is painful!) Is there a knot that won't pull my hair out? I mean, it's not like I'm tying the knot near my hair. It just sits there and pulls out my hair. Any way to avoid that?
Slide the knot near the key, grasp them both in your hand, and remove the necklace.

I second Wed’s advice on separate threads, by the way.

4

For #1. I entounter this situation often working in fire. You could simply tie a figure 8 follow through on your wrench. See image and link.
http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8follow/index.php?Categ=climbing&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

I often make a lanyard using two figure 8’s on a bight and use two carabiners.
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/F8Knots.htm

5

Regarding number one, tie the Lobster Buoy hitch to both ends. It’s similar to the Buntline Hitch in that it traps the Working End and is VERY secure. I would want a secure hitch in this situation so you don’t hurt someone by using a faulty knot. The Buntline Hitch itself would work but I’m a fan of the Lobster Buoy Hitch. You don’t need a sling, just use the straight line connecting each end of rope to it’s proper anchor point.

Regarding your last point, look into tying the Sailors Knife Lanyard Knot, it’s good looking and shouldn’t pull your hair out. It’s takes a little practice to get good at but you’ll impress yourself when you do get it right. It’s ABOK #787 in Ashley’s big book on knots. Google ABOK #787 and it should come up.

6

The scaffold knot would also work well for a lanyard.

http://knots-guide.blogspot.com/2008/04/scaffold-knot.html

Here is an image of the knot with 1/2 inch rope.

Thats my favorite Rock Exotica Orca Pirate carabiner by the way. Or, better said, my favorite carabiner.

7

Once again wasted effort, when will I learn?

8

Amy, you have interesting criteria (which so far others have
blithely ignored :stuck_out_tongue: ), but I need to know more about

  1. the nature of your “tieline”
    (how thick is it, of what type of rope --twisted, braided,
    stilff or flexible, firm or soft);

  2. why you see this line as THE thing to use
    (vs. e.g. Roo’s suggestion to suit the material to the need);

  3. why you need freedom of movement at both ends
    –of the tool & the 'biner.

FYI, a quick answer is that the tieline “loop” can be closed
with overhand knots in the form of a Frost knot
–well, one of them–, possibly. But I think that such a
structure can be further refined to suit, depending upon
the answer to the nature of the tieline. (E.g., can you
fit TWO parts of it --the tip end of a “loop”-- through the
wrench’s hole? Which would enable one to affix the wrench
so that it could be more easily removed.)

8 September, Saturday : 1 day for planning & preparation!

–dl*

9

The Frost knot works fror me but here’s another suggestion while you’re thinking about Dan’s questions:

Tie a double fisherman’s knot but leave the two double overhand knots a few inches apart at first. Now pull a bight of the main loop through the gap between the overhand knots until only one thickness of rope is between the two knots. Tighten the double fisherman’s firmly and you will have two interdependant loops but which need a firm pull to adjust them. I’ve attached 2 pictures - the first shows the double fisherman’s the second shows the 2 loops when it is tightened - you can adjust these two. This meets your need to have a continuous rope but with only one very secure knot and two loops.

015.JPG

10

Concerning your number one point, aren’t you tying the carabiner to your belt loop or buckle? If so, I don’t understand your concern over the carabiner sliding down the rope towards the wrench, it’s an impossibility if I read it correctly. It will stay put on yout belt loop. Having said that, the carabiner may still have freedom of movement on the loop itself…in the arbor (tree cutting business), that’s called side loading and can have bad consequences. It’s also recommended in the tree cutting business to attach to your anchor point (carabiner), with either the Scaffold Knot, Buntline Hitch or Lobster Buoy Hitch. Two Half Hitches isn’t recommended because they can work loose and lead to the sideloading issue. With the three previous mentioned knots, they trap the working end and actually get tighter and tighter. Of course this is all moot if you decide to go with a sling.

11

That’s my understanding. A concern with the “loop” (round sling)
is that it becomes a snag-on-something risk, which has severe
safety implications. Putting a few overhand knots into the sling
will convert it to a sort of strop, unlikely to open its
in-between spans to become snag risks. But doing so
also consumes rope length per knot --hence my questions
about the particular “tieline”.

Having said that, the carabiner may still have freedom of movement on the loop itself...in the arbor (tree cutting business), that's called "side loading" and can have bad consequences.

True, but here’s where one can often find responses going
way aside from the posed problem --which, here, is :
“I need to have a crescent wrench that I can attach to my body”.
There is no issue of loading at all, for a mere crescent wrench;
and, indeed, if anything it might be an issue (re that snagging)
that the lanyard be weak enough to ensure breakage on
some fall, since it’s certainly not being prepared for fall protection.
(Given the sounds of the tieline, though, that sounds strong.)

Also, given the sounds of the particular tieline, it sounds thick
enough to pose a hitching problem --thick to thinner. I’ve
been thinking of the bull (Piwich) hitch as a means to both
keep the object snug to the line but be readily removable,
but in thick-onto-thin that’s possibly hard to work --and especially
if one can’t fit a bight through the wrench’s hole (it might not
begin to look workable on a toy 'biner!).

–dl*

12

I suspect the OP has already abandoned this thread, that is why I said wasted effort.

13

I have not abandoned the thread, and I apologize that I appeared to. I’m simply overwhelmed with all of the different suggestions, especially since I know virtually nothing about knots, and it’s really difficult to try and wrap my head around them. I’m going to try to answer some of the questions as best I can, sorry if I go out of order and/or miss some.
Tieline is a string that we use in theatre to dress pipes. We hang various stage fixtures from the pipes using C clamps (which are tightened with the crescent wrench) and then we have to run cable to them so they can get power. If we just leave all the cable hanging there, it looks really ugly, which is where tieline comes in. I don’t know anything about rope, so I’m afraid I can’t tell you what kind it is, etc. Here’s a page I found with Google that sells tieline (which I just discovered is apparently supposed to be two words, although it’s always pronounced as one): http://www.stagespot.com/tie-line.html The reason that I want to use the tie line (fixing my spelling now!) is because I already have it, and if something happens, whether it breaks or whether someone spills a soda on it, I can get more really easily and for free.
I’m not concerned about whether the carabiner slides around while I’m wearing it (although it would be inconvenient if the knot made it over to my hand, since I only have a 6" wrench). I’m more concerned that when I’m not wearing it, I don’t want to have to manually move the carabiner to a different end of the tie line from the wrench. I just want to be able to put the wrench in my pocket, grab the carabiner, clip it on, and go. It’s more an issue of convenience.
I want to be able to move the wrench totally freely so that I can reach over in both directions as far as I can without having to move my body with my arm. That way I can get as much done from one point as possible without having to lean dangerously far to the side. And I want the carabiner to be able to move a little bit so that it’s easier to get it clipped on. I’m expecting that I might have to remove it frequently to lend the wrench to other people.
The reason that I want to use a full loop of tie line instead of just a straight line isn’t because I have a lot, that simply enables me to do what I want to. I want it to be a full loop so that I can hang it on a hook on the wall without taking stuff off the hook that’s bigger than the carabiner. (More specifically, I don’t want to have to move my tape measure in order to hang up the wrench when I put it away. In case you hadn’t noticed yet, I’m a bit lazy.)
I think I answered everyone’s questions about the wrench situation. I’m going to deal with the other ones later.

Now, about the suggestions that have been offered regarding the wrench:
Pretty much all of them seem dependent on me not using a loop to connect the wrench and carabiner, but rather tying one end of a single piece of tie line to the wrench and one end to the carabiner. I struggled for a few hours last night with firebight’s suggestion of using a figure-8 knot, since it seemed the best out of the ones that had been left at that point. I used to be on the rock-climbing team at my local Lifetime Fitness when I was a kid, so I know how to tie a figure-8 knot, but just with one end of a very very big rope. First it took me about an hour to make the tie line behave, then I started trying to figure out how to make it look like the picture firebight posted rather than either what I know from Lifetime Fitness or the mess I had in front of me. I didn’t manage to do it.
So today I checked again on a whim even though I hadn’t gotten any more emails telling me that people had posted, and I found that there are a ton more replies. (Why didn’t I get the emails, even though people replied? That doesn’t make sense.) So I read through the new replies.
The double fisherman’s knot that Sweeney posted a picture of looks pretty much exactly like what I want to do, but I’m not sure how to do that myself. All of the other new suggestions don’t have pictures or instructions posted, so I don’t know whether they would work for me. But if Sweeney or anyone can please explain in clueless-people terms how to tie that double fisherman’s knot, that would be great.
Thank you all for your suggestions, and I’m sorry that I’m so clueless and slow about all of this!

14

Guess I made assumptions to quickly. The figure 8 on a bight is a very easy knot to tie. Perhaps the link I gave did not explain it well enough. Might I direct you to this very good pdf file. The figure 8 is explained.
http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/01_Knots.pdf

The password to open the file is thankyou

15

This site is probably the best for showing how to tie knots - you can play or replay step by step http://www.animatedknots.com/doublefishermans/index.php?Categ=climbing&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com. When tying to make 2 loops you might find it easier to make your string into an S shape and bring one end over the middle and one end under the middle then tie your double fisherman’s as shown in the link trapping the centre strand as you go (3 pictures below show what I mean). You will need to thread the wrench first then clip into the carabiner. And don’t worry everybody starts out clueless (and from the people I meet when demonstrating many stay that way!) but welcome to the Forum, I hope you will keep an eye on what goes on and continue to post.

Barry

16

Thank you so much, Sweeney, I think I got it! And just in time, too, I only have a few hours left before I need to be at the theatre. Thank you!!! happy dance :smiley:

17

Hy Amy,

As regards the problem # 4, the Double Fisherman knot linked by Sweeney,can be used to close the leather cord ,or,in this case,you can opt for the simplest version of this knot, which in effect is the knot with which more commonly are closed the homemade necklaces:

http://daveroot.netau.net/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm#FishermansKnot

You will can see which of the two knots eats less hair (I am not sure if this can also depend on the material (the leather) that you use)!

                                                                   Bye!
18

I’m glad you found a satisfactory answer here! But I’m also surprised that no one has directly countered your assertion that knots are ugly. The answer is very subjective to the person, of course, but I also suspect that there exists somewhere a knot you’ll openly wear with pride once you discover it.

Knots can be dazzlingly gorgeous, elegantly refined, or prosaic and utilitarian. Look up the group Mateloteurs on facebook for examples of the first two!

19

When she said knots are ugly, I think she meant a knot on the back of the neck is ugly compared to a straight rope without a knot. I agree.