How Many Test Cases for Fisherman's Joint!?

Recently on reading CLDay’s Art of Knotting & Splicing
his assertion that the Fisherman’s Joint [aka “Fish.knot”)
tied with (what Charles Warner called) concordant
(i.e., same-handed) OH knots was 20% stronger when
the knots were of the opposite hand of the laid rope
–which in most cases means left-handed OHs for the
common Z-handed rope.
Not that in reported test data have I seen the distinction
made ; but 20% is rather large difference (he intended, I
presume, exactly “20%” and not the easily figured “20%-pt.s”)
!!

So, I got to wondering how many unique test cases there
are for combinations of S-laid, Z-laid, & braided (= no hand)
OH components!! --rather tricky issue, with I think some
interesting results!

–dl*
/====

I don’t have that literature, so I will ask; Was this test a slow pull to destruction? Any photos of any of it? What was the testing equipment?

TIA

SS

The question is re How Many Test Cases arise;
other points re testing aren’t at issue (not to say
“aren’t to be considered in one’s testing”).

–dl*
/====

So, no answers to my questions?

SS-*

Your questions are completely irrelevant to the OP question.
(You may answer them anyway you want, but those answers
don’t belong here. (Of course, it was slow pull.)) HERE, the
issue is handedness --of material & of structure–, sure to
tickle Mark’s fancy : chirality choices, or maybe per knot
it’s “choice chirality(ies)”? !! :grin:

–dl*
/====

Terribly sorry Dan. I didn’t think my questions were irrelevant, completely.

I saw and see No question mark(s) in your OP. Just exclamation marks and presumptions.

IMO, questions belong everywhere.

So - I was curious to gather more info that I could ponder what was done.

And you are making the presumption that Mark will actually care.

:wink:

SS

QUESTION (issue) ::

So, I got to wondering … .

Well, here’s the implied starter cases per CLDay ::

  1. knots both R-handed, rope Z-Laid.
  2. knots reversed to L-handed, w/same rope.
    (and CLDay finds 2 --contrasting hands-- stronger than 1)
  3. knots “discordant” --i.e., one of each hand;
    either lay gets both a match & a contrast w/knots.
  4. with braided rope, 1 & 2 are equal, &
  5. discordant case isolates knot-hand (braid has no
    rope chirality) with here spine-vs.-belly, not vs. spine).
    . ?
    . ?
    . ?

(-;

My initial reaction to this topic thread is that knot ‘strength’ is largely irrelevant and the pursuit of data to prove that specimen ‘A’ versus specimen ‘B’ is stronger/weaker is usually meaningless.

But - having said that… in carefully controlled experiments with a large enough data set, might be of academic interest to knot theorists.

With respect to laid cordage (eg ‘hawser’ type construction with twisted strands) - this type of rope is less relevant today. Most roping professionals who use ropes as part of their PPE / fall protection system use ‘Kernmantel’ construction (ie core + sheath construction). These ropes are engineered to meet EN and/or ANSI standards (eg EN 892 for dynamic climbing ropes).

In the case of modern ‘Kernmantel’ ropes and a hand tied joining knots such as Double Fishermans bend (Ashley #1415) - a more meaningful examination will look at things such as resistance to jamming, footprint (ie volume/mass), amount of rope required to form the knot, stability, and security. Of less importance is ‘strength’.

The Double Fishermans bend (Ashley #1415) is an inter-penetrating knot consisting of 2 double overhand ‘strangles’ of the same chirality. And so this knot will either have ‘S’ or ‘Z’ chirality. Both chiral types are equally valid.

A discordant Double Fishermans bend is sometimes mistakenly tied (eg by beginners/learners). This is where the double overhand ‘strangles’ will have opposite chirality.

Historical knot book authors (prior to the widespread introduction of ‘Kernmantel’ ropes) will show their knots tied in ‘hawser’ type ropes.

CL Day is one of the more ‘trusted’ historical sources - but Scott’s point re the size of data sets (ie peer reviewed testing) is lacking. I do recall my knot instructors teaching us to pay attention to the ‘lay’ of the rope when tying knots - but we just accepted the instructors comments as undisputed fact. As we know, a lot of information passed from historical sources often isn’t based on solid factual evidence.

An interesting web page from Edelrid (German rope manufacturer) is here:

Knots in ropes and slings weaken the material | EDELRID

My initial reaction to this topic thread is that knot ‘strength’ is largely irrelevant and the pursuit of data to prove that specimen ‘A’ versus specimen ‘B’ is stronger/weaker is usually meaningless.

PLEASE reply to the point of this thread, which is not
any particular result of testing, but the understanding
of chirality & thus --as I expressly asked for-- the number
of test cases that offer unique combinations of handedness
of OH components vs. lays or non-lay of the ropes.
For this point, I even laid out a start to such listing of cases.

–dl*
/====

OH knots was 20% stronger when
the knots were of the opposite hand of the laid rope
–which in most cases means left-handed OHs for the
common Z-handed rope.
Not that in reported test data have I seen the distinction
made ; but 20% is rather large difference (he intended, I
presume, exactly “20%” and not the easily figured “20%-pt.s”)

Dan - in your opening post you made references to strength (eg 20% ‘stronger’, and Charles Warner - although not sure if it was Charles Warner who made the 20% claim).
My initial reaction stands - that knot MBS yield (strength) is largely a meaningless pursuit. I did qualify this to an extent… where carefully controlled testing might be of interest to knot theorists - but such experiments would have to reference a large data set and be based on the ‘scientific method’.

A lot of knot testing is (as you would know) of the ‘homebrew’ variety - done by enthusiasts in the backyard with no rigorous adherence to the ‘scientific method’. I’m not saying that this is ‘bad’ - I’m simply stating that if you’re looking for peer reviewed papers on various knot strength tests - there isn’t a huge source (ie for Hawser laid rope testing).

Modern ropes overwhelmingly are ‘Kernmantel’ construction (not hawser laid). For life critical applications, ‘Kernmantel’ ropes completely dominate.

To you point re “Understanding of Chirality” - how far back are we to examine this? If Ashley (1944) - I dont think he used that term anywhere in his book. I guess the question is; “Did Ashley have a fundamental understanding of chirality"?” I would answer yes - but he didn’t give it any priority. We can look to Harry Asher and his work - where most certainly we can say with certainty he examined chirality - but in my view, a lot of important detail is missing. Asher gave contradicting info on ‘loops’ in some parts of his book - and missed some great opportunities to explore various relationships between ‘bends’ and corresponding ‘eye’ knots.

Derek Smith will be rolling his ‘eyes’ in disdain with my use of the term ‘eye’ in lieu of ‘loop’.

I have to admit that I am somewhat unclear of what you are actually attempting to accomplish? That is, its unclear to me what your end goal is with your questions/posits?

So I’m trying to reply to the ‘point of your thread topic’ - but I’m unclear as to what you are attempting to reveal/prove/disprove/?

I recall from my youthful days learning knots from various instructors telling us to pay attention to the ‘lay’ of the rope (hawser ropes in those days). But I dont recall being presented with any peer reviewed test data - just being told how to think and told to comply. We just accepted that the lay of a hawser rope was relevant and that we should tie our knots accordingly. I have no evidence to give you other than my fading memories.

If I was to make an educated guess: If we ran some tests using Hawser laid rope and tied some knot specimens - with careful controls - I dont think we would see statistically significant variation in knot ‘strength’.

I think looking backward to historical works will not provide you with the answers you seek. I therefore strongly recommend that you run your own tests and share your data here on this IGKT website.

Recommendations:

1. Purchase some Hawser laid rope.

2. Tie knots in a certain chiral orientation relative to the lay of the rope.

3. Use ‘controls’.

4. Run the tests - break some knots.

5. Publish your results here on this IGKT website.

You’re going to need a statistically valid sample size of knot tests (probably at least 5 tests to the yield point for a particular knot chiral orientation).

Some will chime in here and declare that a sample size of 5 is insufficient.

For ‘Kernmantel’ ropes - I don’t think chiral orientation is important. If I tie a simple Bowline (Ashley #1010) with ‘Z’ chirality and also in ‘S’ chirality, and test them (in the same Kernmantel rope) - I don’t believe you will see any statistically meaningful variation in results.

Some papers you have likely read:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344689340_Revision_of_Commonly_Used_Loop_Knots_Efficiencies

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~des/DSmithKnotting.pdf (you’ll like this one - fits nicely with your position on the definition of what a knot is (randomly formed tangles).

NOTE: The above link points to a very interesting recent paper on slide and grip hitches. To prevent AI ‘bots’ you have to prove you are a human to download the paper.

Other than that, I don’t know how I can add anything more useful to your cause?

1 Like

THIS touches my query; the entiREst of your long post is irrelevant.

For ‘Kernmantel’ ropes, I don’t think chiral orientation is important. If I tie a simple Bowline (Ashley #1010) with ‘Z’ chirality and also in ‘S’ chirality, and test them (in the same Kernmantel rope) - I don’t believe you will see any statistically meaningful variation in results.

? Really? I am explicit about treating the Fisherman’s Knot (joint)
How many unique Fisherman’s Knot test cases are there
E.g., consider the case of discordant Fisherman’s Joint,
where the OH components abut spine-vs-belly and not spine-vs-spine?!

Other than that, I don’t know how I can add anything more useful to your cause?

You can get on your chirality horse and set out all of the unique
test cases to try, to ensure covering possible differences arising
from chirality (and including braided rope as a sort of neutral
chirality complementing the Z-lay & S-lay ropes). Build a table
of test cases to do (and maybe some that are indicated as being
redundant, but popping up at various table entries laid out to
be complete).

–dl*
/====

My remark re 2 simple Bowlines (Ashley #1010) one being tied with ‘S’ chirality and the other tied in ‘Z’ chirality stands. You will NOT see any statistically meaningful different in MBS break tests.

As for concordant versus discordant Double Fishermans bend (Ashley #1415) tied in the same ‘Kernmantel’ rope - you will not see any statistically meaningful variation in MBS break tests.

If tied in Hawser lay rope, I doubt that you will find any data sets on concordant versus discordant break tests on Double Fishermans bend.

My advice stands… why not run your own tests using Hawser lay rope to definitively answer your questions? Why cant you do this? Again, I doubt if you will ever find any historical data sets that will definitely answer your questions - so it stands to reason that running your own tests might be the best way forward.

As for my [quote] “chirality horse” - I lost the horse shoes long ago!

And [quote] “set out all of the unique test cases to ensure covering possible difference arising from chirality…”
I’m not inclined to do this because I see no real-world value in doing so.

I don’t use Hawser lay ropes - I only use and rely on ‘Kernmantel’ ropes. And as I’ve pointed out, the chiral orientation of a knot (eg Bowline tied with S or Z chirality) will not matter in terms of ‘strength’.

With ‘Bends’ (end to end joining knots) - you might see stability issues with varying chirality between one S.Part continuation or the other S.Part continuation (eg a discordant Double Fishermans bend) - but I doubt if you would see any significant ‘strength’ differences.

I think it depends on what you are testing for - ie, what is your theory and what experiment will you design to either prove or disprove your theory.

Full disclosure:

Would I personally be interested in reading a paper on the results of testing concordant versus discordant Double Fishermans benbs?

Answer = Yes… I would be interested.

Again - I would posit that no statistically meaningful difference would be measured. There might be a difference - and if there was, it would be small. Certainly no where near a dangerously low MBS where death would result from relying on a discordant Double Fishermans bend! The difference (if measurable) would only be of interest to knot theorists. And if it were proven that there is a measurable difference, the next step would be to prove the principal drivers for the difference (a thermal imager would likely be useful).

Your remark about my “long post” - well, this is a forum for knot geeks right? And this section is titled “Knotting Concepts & Explorations”. So I am advancing my concepts and explanations - but to do so takes more than just a few words :slight_smile:

For someone who likes to toss out “chirality” at usually
irrelevant points, you sure are unconcerned with that
aspect in a question posed expressly to highlight it!

Let’s take the BWL (#1010); here’s a chirality table such as
I’m trying to prod folks to consider for the Fisherman’s Joint
cases. [dang, seems I have to put in ‘. . .’ so to achieve spacing]

/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RHand . . . . . LHand
/ . Z- (or S) laid rope . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . X
/ braided (no-lay) . . . . . . .O . . . . . . . . . . O

And this covers the cases, with one redundancy
Put another way --using now both rope lays, and
now to just either-handed BWL–, it can be more
efficiently presented --to wit:
/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .RHand (or one could have LHand)
/. . Z-laid rope . . . . . =
/ S-laid rope . . . . . . X
/ braided . . . . . . . .. . O
And the trio of cases are presented in 3 table entries.

Now, the Fisherman’s Joint is more involved,
with two abutting OH components, and the
handedness of them can produce concordant
(spine-vs-spine) or discordant (belly-vs-spine)
Fisherman’s Knots. By my reckoning --doing what
I ask in this thread and not ignoring it w/keystrokes–,
there are a dozen unique cases.
(To what degree these different cases matter is a separate issue
–which one would think a person so focused (at least nominally)
on chirality would insist be put to test.)

It’s a tricky knot to figure. If one considers the Fisherman’s Eye
Knot, things grow even more interesting, though only
when reaching into the unnaturally possible --in contrast
to using, as naturally is done, ONE rope (type) !! I.e., check
cases where one must tie a different rope type to be the
Returning Eye Leg & Tail’s knot. The interesting and extra
factor for chirality concerns of such mixtures is that–unlike
the Fish.Joint case-- the Fish. EK has distinctly loaded OH
components : the S.Part’s is loaded 100%-vs- 50% but the
RELeg->Tail OH is 50% (little less, actually, as REL is nipped
going through S.Part’s OH) -vs-0% (Tail) ! I think that these
unique cases number 18 --that the half-dozen redundant
cases as I’ve set out in a table become non-redundant.

It is to induce knotters to go through this exercise so to
appreciate chirality aspects! --which might/ might-not
matter much in practical terms, but they exist and their
effect could be checked. (I will note that Wright & Magowan’s
1928 Alpine Journal article touches on some of these aspects
but in a not altogether comprensible way --i.p., though they
insist on “with the lay” for the Fisherman’s OH components,
their photo illustration shows left-handed OHes (which I think
is what is intended and that W&M have odd notions of what
is “with the lay”!).

–dl*
/====

Thanks!

Luckily, I’m not one of the insane woke lefties in the world - so I dont get offended and harmed (lefties love to claim harm - its one of their favourite words). But, I would respond that I try to be relevant (not irrelevant).

I tend to raise the subject of chirality when examining the various knot phenotypes that exist - eg when counting the number of possible corresponding ‘eye knots’ that can be associated with a parent ‘bend’. And also the fact that Ashley himself tends to be biased to illustrating knots with ‘Z’ (right handed) chirality. Almost all of the ‘Bowlines’ illustrated in his book have ‘Z’ chirality. The obvious question for me is; “Why?”

By my reckoning --doing what
I ask in this thread and not ignoring it w/keystrokes–,
there are a dozen unique cases.

I love keystrokes :slight_smile:

Doing what you “ask” is somewhat unclear - I note that I am thus far the only person to engage with you. Either other people are also unclear of exactly what you expect - or they are fearful of personal insults / ad hominems?

I’ll try to ‘steel man’ your argument:

Your focus appears to be on ‘Hawser lay’ ropes (not modern ‘Kernmantel’ construction fibre ropes).
You want to draw up a table to define an array of concordant versus discordant and S + Z chirality knots tied in Hawser lay rope.
The intent being to determine the effect of chirality has relative to the lay of the rope (ie Hawser lay rope). I presume the word ‘effect’ is implied to mean knot MBS (strength)?

Okay - did I steel man your argument correctly?

If yes - I did declare in good faith that you would be hard pressed to find any large historical data sets showing the effect of chirality on hand tied knots in Hawser lay rope. It appears to me that the first notable attempts to bring chirality to the forefront of thinking was likely by Harry Asher in the 1980’s?

And specifically, he wrote a piece in Knotting Matters issue #5 (1983)
Link: http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/dumpextras/othermags/Other%20Assorted/IGKT/KM5.pdf

Although not exactly in line with what you seek - in KM #3 Asher sets out a table to identify possible combinations of ‘bends’ created by linked simple overhand knots (eg Riggers bend). I personally find his system to be flawed and indeed his code for the Riggers bend ‘assumes’ only one chiral orientation?
His code notation for the Riggers bend is: RAS DC DR (assumes Z chirality).

Also, his table appears to miss other possible combinations such as the image I have attached with this post (see below). It is an inverted Riggers bend (ZZ chirality). I am of the view that in a Hawser lay rope, the chirality of an inverted Riggers bend will not have a statistically significant effect on MBS (strength).

Note: The corresponding Inverted Riggers eye knot will also likely be unaffected by chiral orientation in Hawser lay ropes (see image below).

I would like to draw your attention to a youtube video created by Dave Searle (climber) - where he appears to have no concept of ‘concordant’ versus ‘discordant’ Double Fishermans bend.
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykzmVwFrVLM&t=1324s

Go to time lines:

4:49

20:50

22:04

Where he shows discordant Double Fishermans bends (and Triple Fishermans bend). In fairness to Dave, I hold the view that there will be no statistically significant difference on knot MBS in either chiral form. What it does show is that allegedly experienced climbers appear to have no concept of concordance (and by inference, chirality).

To what degree these different cases matter is a separate issue
–which one would think a person so focused (at least nominally)
on chirality would insist be put to test

Hmm, another ad hominem?
It might matter… but as I had previously pointed out, my focus isn’t on Hawser lay ropes. The chiral form of a knot does interest me - just not in Hawser lay ropes!

Q. Would I (Mark Gommers) be interested in properly designed tests to examine the response to load between a concordant v discordant Double Fishermans bend?

A. Yes - I would be interested.

I’ll make a prediction… No significant difference in MBS will be measured. However, we might see differences in jamming threshold, and stability.

I don’t think we would see any security issues.

And in closing, is there any reason in principle why you couldn’t run your own series of load tests?

Images (below):

I am of the view that the chiral orientation of the Inverted Riggers Bend and corresponding eye knot will not be affected in Hawser lay rope - and this includes the chiral orientation of the ‘lay’ of the rope..

Your focus appears to be on [laid] ropes (not [braided] ropes).
You want to draw up a table to define an array of concordant versus discordant and S + Z chirality knots tied in [laid & unlaid] rope.
The intent being to [set out all unique cases (i.e., remove redundancy)
for the Fisherman’s Knot/Joint, for testing then to see what matters.]

Okay - did I steel man your argument correctly?

You were close(r). Why is this so hard to understand?
Laid rope has a lay, a chirality aspect; braided lacks this.
–which considered a chirality difference, or course.
And the OH components of the Fisherman’s Joint --and
even more so (if artificially mixing rope types) the Eye Knot–
can behave depending upon chirality.

So, for the sake of covering all possibilities, what are the
needed test cases? The cases will be noted as having
an OH that matches or contrasts handedness with the
laid rope, and is otherwise we might say in “neutral”
with braided rope (where behavior might differ from
either lay).
This is a LOGICAL examination :: set up the cases that
differ from each other --what are they, how many … .
(It is NOT about doing any literature search for data;
it is not about DOING THE TESTING to see; it is about
articulating cases 2 B Sure all possibilities are covered.)

And I’ve already given some examples, some starts
–such as the trio of cases for an EK such as the BWL
(matching & contrasting lays & “neutral”).

–dl*
/====

Steel manning your position has not provided clarity on what type of testing you are proposing. Although not explicitly stated, I could take an educated guess and assume you are thinking in terms of MBS break tests (ie just pull and break knots - and record the kN numbers).

Or, you might be thinking in terms of something other than pure MBS break tests?

Presumably, the tester has the burden of purchasing ropes and equipment and the inevitable destruction of ropes?

I recall pointing out the obvious - why can’t you run your own tests? Is something stopping you?

In good faith, I have added some images of Double Fishermans bend + simple overhand knots tied in hawser lay rope (RHOL).

It occurred to me that it might be useful to first test simple overhand knots - tied in S and Z chirality in RHOL (right hand ordinary lay) hawser rope.

If it turns out that one chiral orientation overhand knot has a measurable difference in MBS compared to its chiral opposite, this would be interesting. Thinking more about this, it might be the case that one chiral form ‘unravels’ more as load increases (ie the 3 strands of the Hawser lay are forced apart). I would surmise that ‘quite a few’ break tests would need to be performed to collect sufficient data.

An accurately calibrated load cell will be required.

Sure wish Derek Smith was here. He would be able to design a test regime to collect data on the effect knot chirality has in a 3 strand Hawser lay rope. I wonder if Derek would agree with my idea of testing simple overhand knots?

And I also wonder how many break tests Derek would regard as sufficient to draw conclusions from collected data?