How to improve the security of the bowline. Two simple instructions.

[Twine]

@roo post:6

It’s been discussed before. It is jam prone as a midline loop when the parent line is under tension, or when tied as a bend as Dave Root has depicted on his site. The Double Dragon Midline Loop variant doesn’t seem to be jam prone when the loop is loaded and either the standing part is pulled by itself or when the loop is loaded and what is usually the free end is pulled by itself.

In other words, the midline variant is OK when pulled on from one side only, which is very limiting.

I was doing some shake testing of the double dragon loop with some Bluewater II, and found that it popped open and untied much earlier than I’d prefer when compared with other similar size or complexity loops.

There are a few ways of tying the double dragon loop, but the simple way has a fundamental problem in that you cannot thread the rope around or through an object before closing. That’s somewhat important for an end loop.

In summary, this is a poster child for why you should not try to limit yourself to one knot. In trying to cram multiple applications into one knot, you get something that is lacking in nearly all aspects. Learn the language of knots, not just one or two words.

P.S. The reason security requirements for midline loops are typically lower than end loops is that you’re typically far away from the ends of the rope in a midline application with the added benefit of all the weight of those long ends.

I can’t argue with what you say, it’s all true. Personally, I think the best is to use the Butterfly Loop for a midline loop and a double-knotted bowline (which I like to start like a double overhand noose and finish by tucking the tail through the collar) as a PET end loop. But those are two knots, so that wouldn’t satisfy Mobius’ specific request for one and the same knot, (which also must be a TIB bowline) for all purposes. I’ve never used the Double Dragon as a midline loop, except as idle experiment, so I didn’t know it could jam in the circumstances you describe, but on the other hand, Mobius didn’t specify non-jamming or ease of untying for his ideal knot.

Do you think Mobius or anyone will ever be able to find a single knot that fulfills all his specifications if we also include non-jamming and ease of untying in the specs? I’m pretty sure no such knot exists right now, because if it did, everyone would be using it.

A question about your shake test: the Bluewater II line, is it very springy and slippery?

/Twine