:
Oops, sorry to have gone absent from this thread,
but it wasn’t along the Practical tact I have been taking
and I forgot about it.
I should take a photo of a knot or sketch of the knot that
I have described (which tied knot remains tied --like piles
of others-- awaiting the pen-to-paper processing).
Rusty, have you tried the “S88 bend” in comparison to yours ?
( In the attached pictures, I post pictures of both. The S88 bend pictures were posted, for the first time, at (1). S88 bend (Simple 88) is the un-tucked version of the F88 bend (Full 88), presented at (2) The pictures of your version, were taken after your post, are based on your pictures, and are posted here for the first time.)
Hi Xarax,
It took me a while to see the same use of the “&” in the structure of the bend, well done. I wounder how many other complications of this structure can be had!
The S88 sets and dresses nicely, I am struggling a little with the other to S&D it, though it lays nicely in the open form.
Regards rusty.
Xarax, the “Rusty s bend” photos you post are not Rusty’s bend.
In his (and in the like knot Riemann & I also discovered), each
line collars the other’s SPart, and the end exits logically
parallel to the SPart, nipped between it and the collar. (Yours
show an end exiting a loop structure in the opposite direction
of its SPart. And, absent an indication of loading profile, offer
a potential trio of bends --two symmetricly & one asymmetricly loaded
(as does the Reever/ViceVersa structure).)
Xarax
Thanks for posting the photos of Rusty’s bend.
What I have taken the liberty to call “Rusty s bend”, is a variation of the S88 bend where standing ends and tails are interchanged, ( i.e., we now load the ends that were used to be the tails of the S88 bend ). I have tied this bend only after Rusty s post : I had never before considered this “elognated” version, because my original purpose ( at the relevant “interlocking knots” thread ) was to tie “interlocked” knots that were as compact as possible. Also, I have not considered the two other alternative loading of the free ends.
I do not know if Rusty s bend, or my S88 bend, have been published somewhere previously, or not. I think they are very interesting bends, certainly not much worse than the Reever knot !
Did I say that Rusty s bend is “elongated”, while the S88 bend is “compact” ? Well, I was wrong ! Just as I was untying the Rusty s bend that I have used to take the new pictures of the previous post, (where one can distinguish the standing ends/tails pair), I realized how wrong I was… because what is really happening, is the exact opposite ! We can force the “elongated” Rusty s bend to collapse, and shrink to a compact final form, while the unloaded “compact” initial form of the S88 bend, when loaded, gets a more elongated final form.
I do not know if the “elongated” form of Rusty s bend is unstable, that is, it is just an intermediate, temporary knot form, and, when the bend is finally heavy loaded, it inevitably settles to the “compact” form. I had no time to examine the compact form, I just post the pictures I have taken a few moments ago.
I made a trip to the local library the other day and checked out their precious copy of Ashley’s book of Knots, (which is not for loan) and found ABOK #1450. This looks pretty close to my bend! the text does not seem to reveal much. So I am taking the liberty to name this knot a " Rusty Bend, ABOK #1450???" (also identified as a Symmetric Hawser Bend, by Jack Riemann)
Thanks all, Dan, Roo too.
If any are interested, this is how I tie it.
By the way I found this apple app if any are interested, not bad. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/knot-guide/id293111210?mt=8
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5712.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5713.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5714.jpg
Pulling on the standing part.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5715.jpg
Pulling on the free ends.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5716.jpg
Rusty, I think that your original method, for the original, elognated knot form, is not needed any more for the compact form. You go from Europe to Indies through West Indies ! Try to figure out an easier and quicker way. See the attached pictures, are they of any help for you ?
And here is the re-tucked version of Rusty s-ABoK#1450 bend. Much uglier, that is true, but much safer, too ! You win some, you lose some…
Xarax,
Oh so harsh! :), Ok try this method.
Lets face it there is a degree of difficulty with this bend, though that’s the challenge for me, to add another knot to my bag! I read that knot tying is high on the list for brain develoement ???
Start as though you were going to tie a Surgeons bend, Right over left, over left.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5717.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5718.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/rusty427/DSCF5719.jpg
regards rusty
Many superficially similar knots have radically different properties. ABOK #1450 has quite few differences from your bend if you look closely. If Dan has found your bend in the Symmetric Bends book, I would think that you’d be more inclined to informally refer to that bend as yours.
Och! I stand corrected, Thanks Roo, I will take another look. I was rushed when I checked it out at the library, It sure looked the same.
I was under the impression that it was not found in Symmetric Bend Book!
Please name it if you can identify it from a book.
Rusty
PS; I have had a good look just now, took a photo ABOK #1450 to compare, it seems to be orientated in in the opposite form, otherwise it looks the same, one free end could be exiting from the middle of the bend though I am not sure if that’s just poorly drawn. am I missing something?
Rusty, your method is fine, I have just suggested that you could probably discover another, simpler one, where the initial form resembles more the final (compact) form.
Well, I am sure that it is high on the list of brain deterioration, too…
(We try to hide that list, and the fact that excessive knot tying will make your brain circuits jam ! :))
P.S. 2011-12-2 I have tied the Rusty s bend-ABoK1450 for some time now, starting from the loose knot shown in the attached picture. It is the interlocking of two Pretzel-like knots . I believe it is a more “natural” road to follow, if we want to arrive directly and quickly to the compact form of this bend.
You’ll have to ask Dan for more specifics about what he has found:
More update: the Symmetric Hawser Bend presented by Jack Riemann as his "#1" version matches your discovery, and his "#2" is the other version, in which the tails are tucked immediately after making the u-turn. This 2nd version is presented in R.E.Miles's book as "A18". Owen Nuttall also discovered it, in 1985.
Yes, this is how I’ve tied it; and then one can wonder what
happens if the number of twists are increased, and so on.
Nice photos.
In the spirit of sharing, voici my ooollllld note-pages about two knots
discussed in this thread, along with a “Sidewinder” elaboration of
fantasy.
Unearthed at last, beautiful symmetric bends. Although their initial loose forms are quite similar, their final tightened forms differ substantially. I think that the central crossings of the B variation “lock” the standing parts more, so that there is much less work to be done by the collars - a not so desirable characteristic. I like the A variation more, because the standing parts go up and down and lock with the other elements of the bend without using the central rope embrace/twist as much as the B variation does. Who is going to test all those knots, I wonder…
P.S. The “Diamond bend”, as mentioned by Dan Lehman in Reply#40, is identical to the “Symmetric Howser bend” ( M. A18 ), which was published by Rienman
J. Reinmann. Symmetric hawser bend. Knotting Matters 43 ( 1993), p.22-23
The original “Sidewinder” bend looks too convoluted/complex to my eyes…On the contrary, the un-tucked knot is much simpler, and has a familiar look. What is more importand is that, even in this much simplified form, this small knot retains the central 4 strand crossing of the original “Sidewinder” bend ( shown at (1)) ,alongside the great braking power this crossing offers on the Standing parts.
Thanks for sharing Dan, your notes a precious!
Both these bends are usable in the real world, It would be nice to see them used again as reasonable alternatives to other mainstream bends currently available.
I personally use my/our version (Rusty Bend ;)) on a regular basis for every day use, and will use the “Diamond Bend A” in the mix.
Thanks Xarax for your photos, it made for tying the “Diamond Bend A” easy.
Rgds rusty