KNOT TESTING GUIDELINES - is IGKT best positioned to set fundamental guidelines?

Indeed, that is why I am rather hesitant to offer suggestions in this thread or post any sort of ‘conclusion’ from home trials of a knot I test. That is especially true if I do some trials and they happen to contradict someone’s theoretical proclamation about their cherished knot. Been there, done that, and it has not been worth the insults I received on this site in the past ???

Mark, as you know I ‘home-test’ knots. I suggest to you that I actually home-trial knots, there is a distinction perhaps.

I am about to get very busy again with the start of the new school term. If you are interested in my thoughts I will try and find some time to provide them. The framework you provide above is off to a good start, FWIW.

Cheers, Ian.

per Mobius:

it has not been worth the insults I received on this site in the past ???

Thats a harsh criticism. If your backyard testing fulfills certain minimum criteria, I am sure that everyone would appreciate your conclusions.
Some people get very fixated on a concept and will defend it to the end.

I can see one brewing already - with the distinction between ‘backyard testing’ versus ‘home trials’.
The word ‘trial’ versus ‘test’, (is it a trial or is it a test?). Most people understand the concept of a knot test.
And ‘home’ versus ‘backyard’, (home implies at someones house, or perhaps your own house. What if you performed the ‘test’ at a park, in someones garage, or at someones workplace?).

No, that wasn’t harsh. Words like insulting, belligerent, and trollish behaviour immediately spring to mind for some ‘feedback’ I have received in the past. But let’s move on, shall we?

I was not intending to nitpick your proposal. I have experience in home trialling knots and that might have been helpful.

And I’d like to see some description of what these
tests would be. As you’ve stated, it matters to understand
what you want to test, and I think that we can come
to some agreement about what seems to be but actually
isn’t (so well) tested, in a number of cases.

We might come to see that extensive testing as some
urge on the basis of adequate test cases for statistical
sanity sadly simply doesn’t really give us great information
for understanding knots. --to which my How Many Samples
to Test Milk… example was meant to suggest.

And that a better, surer step forwards is articulating
the data aspects --i.e., things to be noted (probably
less temp./humidity and more rate-of-loading …)
by testers. I’m always wanting to SEE what the actual
–not presumed well-enough specified in literature–
knot looked like when push came to shove!

–dl*

This is in reference to my previous post (Knot Test).

Images of test equipment…

EDIT: The load cell I would really like to own is the rock exotica ‘enforcer’.
It is the best in its class. But, very expensive to purchase here in Australia (AUD $1200.00).
Link: https://www.rockexotica.com/enforcer-load-cell
Brilliant engineering - made in USA.

Maybe one day a kind IGKT member living in the USA might be able to do a deal with me (I transfer private payment and we organize cheap shipping to Australia).


Lever hoist.jpg

Load-cell_Enforcer.jpg

Thank you for sharing agent_smith.

BTW, there is a significant difference between the equipment you use to ‘test’ with and what a ‘knot trialler’ like myself, with my own modest measuring equipment, can achieve at home. I might be asking you for tests from now on ;D

per Mobius:

BTW, there is a [b]significant [/b]difference between the equipment you use to 'test' with and what a 'knot trialler' like myself, with my own modest measuring equipment, can achieve at home

Hardly (not in a derogatory sense, rather - that I myself identify as a ‘backyard tester’ - with limited resources).

I find this word play on trial versus test amusing (not in a derogatory sense, but simply in terms of such close dictionary definitions)
Trial definition: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/trial
Test definition: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/test

As a ‘backyard tester’ like me, there is little real-world difference between us.
I have a load cell (and this is likely a key difference - but see below…any force measurement device could be used).
You could also purchase a load cell - or at least some type of device that is capable of measuring force.

The following is simply examples of different options…it is not an inventory of what you may or may not possess!
I have a 2 ton lever hoist - which cost me less than AUD $100.00 (although you could rig your own system by just using some pulleys). If you have a small boat - you could use the winch that pulls your boat back on to the trailer.
If you have a 4WD vehicle with a winch on the bull bar, you could use that…
If you have a ‘high lift’ jack, you could use that.

My camera is an el cheapo compact pocket digital which cost me about AUD $100.00 (although these days, the camera on a typical mobile/cell phone produces very high image quality (better than my little pocket camera).

Please desist in quoting the dictionary at me, it is not the first time you have done it, and it is easily construed as being an act that attempts to demean me. I have ignored this in the past, along with usually (at best) dismissive comments from you that are inappropriate.

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with using the word ‘trial’ as opposed to the word ‘test’. Used in the way I am using it is the more appropriate word. Some more research on your part is required, though I can play it your way and guide you to a reference if I must. However, you might find my doing so a slight.

That you presume to know my knot rig well, along with its strengths/limitations simply astounds me. The technical specifications for my knot rig are significantly less accommodating for doing the level of knot testing you can achieve. I have evidence for this assertion, you have nothing it seems.

If you want to apologise to me then I assure you, I can move on and we can both (hopefully) be careful to treat each other with respect in our comments. If not an apology from you, then please find some self-restraint and leave me alone. For my part, I won’t respond to your posts in the future.

Previous comment from me:

I find this word play on trial versus test amusing.

I find many things in life amusing.
I am allowed to find the insistence of use of one word over another similar word amusing. Amusement by itself is not an act of demeaning anyone.

Quoting dictionary references also isn’t an act of demeaning anyone - its simply referring to external authorities for definitions.

That you [i][b]presume to know[/b][/i] my knot rig [i][b]well[/b][/i], along with its strengths/limitations simply astounds me.
I think you place your own interpretation on a perceived construction of my words. You did it before in relation to the Riggers X bend where you thought that I stated that Xarax 'discovered it' - when I never stated anything of the sort. Remember that? You never responded to that...

And now you are doing it again. If you read my words very carefully, there is no presuming anything about knowing your “knot rig” (presumably you mean some sort of ‘test’ rig?). All I was doing was pointing out various ways that you might be able generate force (ie various options).
Can you point to the exact words where I stated that I presumed to know your “knot rig”?

The technical specifications for my knot rig are significantly less accommodating for doing the level of knot testing you can achieve.

Okay… I was simply stating that you can use anything to generate force. It doesn’t have to be a lever hoist! The force generating ‘machine’ is actually irrelevant. The knot doesn’t know what is pulling on it - it merely responds to a force. Does it really matter how you generate a force?
I had previously used my ‘Hi-lift’ 4WD jack to generate a force on some knot tests. And, I once used my electric winch mounted on the bull bar of my 4WD. I have also used my next door neighbour’s boat winch on his boat trailer.

I did state that I have a load cell. Obviously, for the sake of accuracy, you need to have some means to measure force - right?
You could use fish scales (hook-to-hook)?

If you want to apologise to me then I assure you, I can move on and we can both (hopefully) be careful to treat each other with respect in our comments.
??? What exactly am I apologizing for? I already treat you with respect. In science, others need to confirm or refute a persons theory of hypothesis - thats how science is done. If someone refutes your theory or hypothesis, does this make them 'a bad person' - should a person apologize for being in disagreement?
If not an apology from you, then please find some self-restraint and leave me alone. For my part, I won't respond to your posts in the future.
Does that mean no one is permitted to refute any of your findings? And that it is only permitted to agree with and confirm your position? I guess you'll just have to not respond to my posts in the future. Is anyone permitted to disagree with you?

By the way, nothing I have written is intended to defame, demean or slander you. I am simply responding to your allegations.

Ahhhh, loverly to see actual-factual knots images ! ! !
:smiley:

But this looks like you changed ropes between those
BWII worn ropes of the earlier trio of loadings and
here comes a white rope (which is the jamming half)!?

Also, in the trio of BWII (3 loadings) knots above,
it looks to me that the 2nd & 3rd images are in
opposite orientations --i.e., the tails have changed
sides, insofar as one can ID the tail from blue-fibre
tracer & burned marking; AND in the amount of
each tail that has been pressed into the bight
of the respective collars (note in the jammed
white rope, there is no tail part keeping open
its collar --one of the points of the Xing!) ?!

IMO, for the jamming pair --and like cordage–,
one might anticipate behavior (incl. compression
flattening of parts) by setting the knot tighter
than one might in less deformable (and less
able to take such loads!) material!? --thinking
that in the nylon the knot achieves but then
moves past an ideal geometry?!

One can contrast the special, careful dressing
and setting of SmitHunterMan’s bend with that
of #1452 --attention to orientation needed, but
hardly so carefully-- & #1408 & the zeppelin
& #1425 … .

One should also pause and consider likely behavior
in cases of unequal ropes --possibly like diameters
but low-elongation joined to dynamic, old to new!?

–dl*

Presumably, having noticed the repeated occurrence of jamming on the force generating machine side of the knot, you repeated the tests with the orientation reversed in order to establish if there was any bias induced by your test rig?

Presumably, having noticed the repeated occurrence of jamming on the force generating machine side of the knot, you repeated the tests with the orientation reversed in order to establish if there was any bias induced by your test rig?

Thanks for your interest Derek.
I would presume that simply flipping the test rig along the ‘x’ axis would not alter the results?
I would do an x axis inversion and also invert the knot.
Will repeat to 12kN again.
Knot was tied with S/S chirality (S twist interlinked with S twist).
I could also try Z twist interlinked with Z twist if you think its also relevant?

Xarax has commented that I should also test #1425A Riggers bend (without the X tail twist) as a control.
There is also another version of the Riggers X bend that Xarax has explored and suggests should be tested.
Link: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4561.0

My focus will soon be shifting to #1410 Offset overhand bend.
We still dont have clear answers to the effect of rotation.
In the attached image I depict 3 different orientations (ABC).
I did a quick and dirty ‘backyard test’ today up to 2.5kN load…and was surprised to find that one of the rotations (A versus C) appeared to be quite stable in comparison to the other. I had my suspicions but was surprised by the initial result.
Was ‘A’ more stable or, was ‘C’ more stable?
Note 1: I consider ‘B’ to be the control.
Note 2: I stopped at 2.5kN because I knew from past experience that 3.0kN appears to be the jamming threshold (and I didn’t want to risk damage from using tools to loosen and untie the structure).

“Is IGKT best positioned to set fundamental guidelines?”

With the knot knowledge and expertise that is collected within the membership and Forum contributors, I believe the answer is without question YES, after all, if not the IGKT, then who?

BUT: The IGKT title is pretentious, because the IGKT is not in fact a Guild. It is not a Guild because it does not award levels of membership based on knowledge or achievement or services to Nodeology. In truth, the IGKT is little more than a ‘Mens Shed’ for Knotters.

So, rephrasing the question slightly to ‘Should the IGKT involve itself in setting fundamental guidelines?’ then, I believe my answer would need to be a resounding NO. For this seeming contradiction, obviously some explanation is both due and indeed, necessary.

Let me start with a little background. My career has been spent in Analysis, and for the major part I ran Analytical Laboratories covering the disciplines of Chemistry, Microbiology and Physical attributes. During that time, I served on numerous Industrial advisory bodies and a similar role to the government, achieving both academic and professional accreditation. When need arose to produce Guidelines on Testing and Standards of Operation, I was in a position to Chair working parties drawn from industry, to produce those guidelines and to expect them to be accepted by the industry as a whole. In drawing up those standards and guidelines, the Working Parties would often draw upon the knowledge and advice of experts in highly specialist areas, who, although vital to the process, could not be expected to be able to draw up standards and guidelines acceptable to the industry at large.

So, based on that background, I frame my first question - “Who / what is the target industry that these Guidelines are to apply to ?”

If the target audience is nothing more than IGKT members, then it would be appropriate to draw a working party from those expert members. But if that is the case, then the goal is incredibly myopic. Hopefully though, the goal is to produce guidelines of value to the whole (or at least a major part) of the knot using industry. If that is the case, then, for the guidelines to be acceptable to that industry, the working party would need to include respected representatives from its various branches. It is rational for the IGKT to champion such a project, perhaps even initiate its funding, even provide a rich supply of specialist experts - But, the working party would need to be established from respected members of the target industry. This is a lot of work and means starting the project in a ‘different place’, but without it, the good intentions are likely to ‘Light their way to dusty death’ (thank you Will.).

This is turning into a lengthy post, but one more aspect is worth throwing into the pot for consideration, and that, based on my experience as a professional analyst are the two ‘Laws of Analysis’.

The first is that the result depends upon the sample, and the second is that we almost never test for what we wish to know…

Now, before you all start muttering “Stupid boy Pike (Derek)” for stating the obvious - that ‘the result depends upon the sample’ - you should by now, know me better - there is more to it than just the obvious. Yes, the magnitude of the test result will be influenced by the value of the parameter in the test sample, but also, the nature of the sample will influence the choice of the test method, and test methods almost never measure exclusively the parameter you are interested in, and to compound the problem, they often measure some other parameter and infer the parameter of interest. Of course, I don’t expect you to believe me, so here are a couple of simple examples -

Moisture in cordage : If the sample is expected to be be high moisture, the analyst might used a vacuum oven at 70 C. But this method measures anything that is volatile in a vacuum at 70C and does not measure any moisture that is tightly bound to the sample.
: if the sample is expected to be low moisture, the analyst might use Karl-Fisher reagent. But again, he is not analysing moisture, he is analysing anything that reacts with hot Iodine, and hopes that this is mostly water.

So you see, yes the sample and the magnitude of its target attribute will directly influence the result, but it will also influence the choice of measurement technique which in turn will influence the inherent errors potentially present in the selected analytical technique.

This leads nicely to the second law - that we almost never test for what we want to know… You have already seen this in the simple example of measuring moisture, but it gets worse. We rarely stop to ask - what do we really want to find out? Instead we ask - what can I measure? then attempt to infer from those results a feel for the real issue that compels us.

So, my second question is - “What is the real thing we want to quantify?”

This leads us to HACCP, but I will cover that is a second post.

Derek

WHOA, I think you’ve mis-labeled “JAMMED”/ there:
for the SParts in what you’re claiming are respetively (J/~J)
looking rather UNbound and more nearly bound,
and surely these are pretty good looks that you’re
presenting in the nice pics. The SPart you claim to have
been jammed sits with a decent bit of captured tail
keeping the collar adequately out from pinching it,
whereas one can see in the opposite side --which you
say was easily loosened-- that the collar had slid down
to more nearly --not entirely, but partly-- pinch the
SPart opposite another part of the knot.

Another note : there is a wee bit of daylight/space
visible in the side you claim jammed, between nipped
tail and alleged jammed SPart; and one can SEE the
full SPart from this space-point across the strand,
so there’s no there there for it to be jammed against/into!
(And, frankly, although the situation is different on the
other end, even there it seems that there should be
ample uncovered-&-pinched-against SPart for it to
have been readily loosened; but I trust that you would
have done so had it been able.)

Thanks,
–dl*

Derek:
Thank you for your informed post.
Thats the first really constructive and well considered reply.

I would like to reinforce a point that I believe is crucial:
I had advanced that all testers could be classified into one of the following groups:

  1. Hobbyist/enthusiast testers
  2. Pseudo lab testers
  3. Certified, nationally accredited test labs.

I believe that expectations of quality scale according to which category a tester identifies as.
I identify as a ‘backyard tester’.
I don’t have anything sophisticated…with the one exception being a ‘load cell’.
Obviously, a tester needs to be able to measure force - but anything suitable could be used (it doesn’t have to be a multi-thousand dollar digital load cell). Fishing scales used to weigh fish could suffice. Although the load capacity of the load cell would be a limiting factor in how much tension force you could safely generate. My end termination anchors are 2 trees growing in my yard!

My camera is a simple el cheapo compact digital type - my daughters i phone takes better quality photos!

So I am not sure if you had thought in terms of these 3 categories of testers?
Note: There are a few on this IGKT forum that dislike the term ‘tester’ - presumably because they fear drawing undue criticism if they hold themselves out as being a ‘tester’.
And the term ‘backyard’ is a metaphor - for informal locations where 'testing is conducted (it could literally be in a persons backyard, front yard, park land, a garage, a shed, inside in your living room!).

I would imagine that you wouldn’t place the bar too high for a ‘backyard’ style tester?
But, I would imagine that you would have clear expectations of a certified, nationally accredited test lab?

I started this thread out of frustration for what appeared to be endless, mind numbing tests that examined nothing else but the MBS yield point of a knot (ie pull-it-till-it-breaks default mentality). Tests often appear to be knot A versus knot B in a pull to failure contest - with the winner being declared superior. Also, the myriad of inaccurate reporting on ‘Bowlines’ and ‘Offset’ bends (eg ‘EDK’) is prevalent and misinformation is parroted endlessly. So I felt compelled to do something…

Others have bogged down with statistical mathematics, consistency and repeatability - to the point where it seemingly went beyond the capabilities of a ‘backyard tester’. I would expect a great deal of scientific rigor from a certified, nationally accredited test lab - but not hold a ‘backyard’ style tester to the same degree of rigor and expectation.

I personally think a tester should declare up front what tester category they identify as - and then expectations would scale accordingly.

EDIT NOTE:
I repeated a test by inverting the test rig and changing the chirality of the knot.
Same situation occurred: The collar adjacent to the force generating machine (ie a lever hoist) was most vulnerable to jamming.
After an initially jammed state was reached - the only way to loosen the structure was to use tools on the opposite collar. Once that collar was loose, it was then possible to work on the jammed collar - using considerable effort aided with tools - to finally work that collar loose. Time frames of around 15 minutes were require with tools to eventually succeed in loosening the structure.

per Dan Lehman:

WHOA, I think you've mis-labeled "JAMMED"/ there: for the SParts in what you're claiming are respetively

There is no ‘WHOA’ at all Dan.
Everything reported is factual and as I observed.
Jamming consistently occurred with the collar oriented to the same side as the force generating machine (a 2 ton lever hoist).
I am going to invert the ‘test rig’ and also invert the knot to see if jamming is still occurring on the collar facing the force generating machine (per Derek’s recommendation).

I would respectfully request that you try this for yourself - load up a #1425A ‘Riggers X bend’ and see for yourself?

Hi Mark,

Constructive discussion is a dance of sharing perspectives, preferably without alienating or offending fellow contributors when opinions clash.

When clashes occur, I find it sometimes valuable to attempt to explain why and how my perspective is different, yet hopefully remain sufficiently valid to be included and enrich the discussion.

With that in mind, I would like to attempt to paraphrase your Group definitions :-

Group 1 : Ingenious, motivated amateur(s) with virtually nothing but household/garage equipment, some types of cordage and a knowledge of knots. [Remember Ashley developed and documented two highly reputable test systems using nothing more than timber, hinges and a bag of sand] .

Group 2 : Group 1 plus access to some sophisticated but not formally calibrated force measuring equipment and recording systems.

Group 3 : Accredited testing facility with certified calibrated Stress / Strain measuring and recording systems, operated by Technicians following detailed and rigorous methodologies.

I hope that you can agree that these definition expansions remain in accord with the classification you have advanced.

Now let us consider a simple investigation and frame it with the two questions I posed in my earlier post:-

Q1 - who is the target audience? for this case it will be simply me, intending to climb a tree.
Q2 - what do I want to find out? I have an 11mm kernmantle climbing rope for security and assist, and I want to know which of the three following knots would be better for my tie in point and why? a) Carrick Loop, b) Bowline, or c) Whatknot Loop.

Now, had my goal been to write a paper for my Masters, and all things being equal, I would have chosen Group 3 because it would have given me opportunity to detail levels of Accreditation and Calibration reports, along with copious amounts of data that I could have thrown through numerous respected statistical engines in order to be able to claim a statistically justifiable level of confidence in my findings. It might even have been enough to win me a good grade.

But, if my goal was as I stated - to choose the best knot as a tie in, then Group 1 would be my best choice by a country mile. They would be able to identify the parameters that mattered - ease and accuracy of tying, risk of mis-tying, proneness to jam, ease of release, response to snag loading and deformation under load, resistance to dressing structure deformation under flogging,..

One of the key tests here is going to be ‘accuracy of tying’ - the exact opposite of what has been proposed so far - i.e. the pedantic prescription of what the knot must be in order to be tested. The tester in Group 1 would ask several people to tie each knot in order to determine a) the likelihood of tying a working (safe) knot and b) the likelihood of a mistied knot being identified before use; all this and not a digital meter in sight…

Result :- Carrick Loop with advisory to check the pattern of the Carrick mat before dressing the knot - the other two, advisory not to be used based on increased risk of death.

Amateurs are often the pinnacle of expertise within their chosen field (amateur radio fans have lead the world in aerial design) and should not be dismissed through lack of modern test equipment. [Remember, ingenuity can help you calculate the circumference of the Earth by standing at the bottom of a deep well].

I hope I have been able to explain why I stand your list of competence of groups on their head. I put output from Group 1, leagues ahead of mountains of calibrated data from Group 3. It is a sickness of today’s mindset that we must have calibrated data in order to make a qualified decision, and that a mountain of statistical analysis is a substitute for intelligence and understanding.

Derek

Thanks Derek,
I concur with your comments and thought processes.

Group 1 : Ingenious, motivated amateur(s) with virtually nothing but household/garage equipment, some types of cordage and a knowledge of knots.

So, what ‘title’ would you suggest for this group?
Just to be clear (and full disclosure), I had never intended the term ‘backyard tester’ to be derogatory or insulting. Its simply a metaphor. I (for example) identify as a ‘backyard tester’.

I hope I have been able to explain why I stand your list of competence of groups on their head. I put output from Group 1, leagues ahead of mountains of calibrated data from Group 3.
Perfectly understandable...and I would chime in that I had no intended hierarchical order in mind... that is, by listing them 1,2,3 - this did not mean that 'group 3' were by default superior to 'group 1' or 'group 2'. It was simply a way of classifying the different entities.
It is a sickness of today's mindset that we must have calibrated data in order to make a qualified decision, and that a mountain of statistical analysis is a substitute for intelligence and understanding.

Perhaps - though I have found in technical discussions with various authors of knot reports around the world, that they request references and citations to back up claims. Citing a ‘backyard’ test report doesn’t hold as much weight as a report from a higher level source/authority. That is not to say that a backyard tester cant make a valuable contribution or produce worthy reports.

A question that you did not answer is the level of scientific rigor and expectation from each of the 3 classes of tester. I had advanced that expectations of scientific rigor scale according to the class of tester.
NautiKnots argued for scientific rigor - underpinned by consistency, repeatability and statistically valid sampling of data. NautiKnots also argued that external agencies such as ‘The Cordage Institute’ and the ‘IEEE’ could and should be consulted when devising knot test plans because of their expertise. I am unclear if NautiKnots had considered the class of knot tester when tendering his arguments?

HACCP vs Statistics

Most of us have heard the phrase ‘Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics’, but how can a branch of mathematics have acquired such a bad reputation? The answer to that comes partly from a misuse of the interpretation of the results, and partly from a nasty habit statisticians have developed of ‘deleting outliers’. These ‘outliers’ are claimed to be recording errors or misreads or some other fault which creates faulty data, so they simply delete it from the data set, giving them a nice ‘statistically significant’ result. But what if those outliers were real?

Take as an example a rope maker with a continuous process that occasionally introduces a fault that drastically reduces the MBS. Regular QC checks will fail to see this occasional fault, but on the one occasion it happens to occur in the section of rope taken for testing, the very low result will likely call for repeats of testing which will of course all measure within the normal range. The rogue figure is then likely to be put down to a mis-measurement, an outlier, and be deleted. The risk though is that occasionally lengths of rope are sent out with a below standard MBS, and somewhere, sometime, one of these weakened ropes will be called upon to deliver its full expected strength and fail - possibly with fatal consequences.

It is human nature to seek nice tidy data sets and to steer shy of complexity. It is this nature that leads us to reject ‘problematical’ data values and to set up our tests with rigorously uniform knots, in search of nice clean data sets.

Recognising the existence of these infrequent events and the unlikelyhood of their being detected by routine QC testing, has led industries to embrace HACCP - Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points.

Using HACCP, this fictional rope manufacturer would observe that multiple spool changes might occur simultaneously which could lead to a single point weakening in the continuous rope making process. This would be identified as a Critical Control Point and the manufacturer would set procedures in place to prevent simultaneous changes, or arrange for the faulty rope to be marked for removal.

The relevance for us knot testers is that we should be realistic in our choice of a range of possible tying forms as part of the range of actual variants this knot experiences. Of course, this would go along with a resistance to considering any form of outlier deletion. This makes the data set far messier, but will far better reflect the reality of the ‘Knot space’ that we are studying.

Of course, when we are comparing knots, it is these worse case outliers that we should be concentrating on, because they will occasionally be made and classed as the knot we are testing.

So, what 'title' would you suggest for this group?

I neither like pretentious titles, nor denigratory ones, which is why I would naturally go for the likes of Group 1 etc. but I take your point that a more descriptive name has merit. How about :-

Amateur
Amateur Equipped
Professional Testing Facility. ?

But to be honest, I don’t see much need to separate them, because if a test claims some measurement, then we need to be able to put some error limits on the values, they will simply be far tighter in the case of the Professional facility.

by listing them 1,2,3 - this did not mean that 'group 3' were by default superior to 'group 1' or 'group 2'. It was simply a way of classifying the different entities.

Yet by scaling the scientific rigour required across the three levels, you automatically accord greater credibility to group 3.

Shouldn’t we expect the same level of rigour from all three groups, but simply expect group three to be able to claim a far lower error confidence than the other two, yet while an equally important aspect of rigour - knot competence - would be expected from all three groups, we would of necessity expect it to be completely lacking from group 3 reports ??

Perhaps - though I have found in technical discussions with various authors of knot reports around the world, that they request references and citations to back up claims.

This sadly is a commonplace form of arrogance and attempted superiority, practised extensively to cover up a lack of expertise in the key elements of the report. It is where,if the IGKT were it truly a Guild, it would be of value to its members by giving recognised accreditation to individuals who have demonstrated exceptional contribution to the field - but alas, it is not to be.

[perhaps as a separate subject, knotters should petition the IGKT to award one of say three levels of accreditation to nominated individuals - say, Master, Associate and Graduate in either the Art or the Science of knotting ?]

NautiKnots argued for scientific rigor - underpinned by consistency, repeatability and statistically valid sampling of data. NautiKnots also argued that external agencies such as 'The Cordage Institute' and the 'IEEE' could and should be consulted when devising knot test plans because of their expertise. I am unclear if NautiKnots had considered the class of knot tester when tendering his arguments?

Yes, they should be included in the consultation, but when it comes to Knots - the experts are from within the IGKT - not the Cordage Institute and certainly not the IEEE, and I hope I have made my opinions of ‘statistical validity’ suitably clear - we must seek out and understand the outliers, for they are the knots which might kill or maim, they are our path to understanding the complexity of our field, and that is completely at odds with mainstream ‘Testing’ mindset.

Yes, we should have rigour, but it must be rigour relevant to the reality of the world of knots tied every day by people of very little knot awareness - that is our playing field, that is the grey goo that we continue to sift through for understanding.