KNOT TESTING GUIDELINES - is IGKT best positioned to set fundamental guidelines?

Hi Scott,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that our WebAdmin and WebMistress between them have the authority and ability to amend the Forum structure, provided that the Forum Administrators have no objections on the grounds of any changes ‘bringing the IGKT into disrepute’ or of being generally inappropriate to IGKT business.

So far I have not read any posts that suggest that the addition of a Review section was raising objections.

The Simple Machines engine that our WebMistress has used to build this Forum is capable of handling forums of far greater complexity and content than our little IGKT Forum. One of the nice things about this engine is that it is very easy to make changes.

For example, we could easily add a board called Reviews, with a couple of sub boards called perhaps Books and Literature and Technical Reports. This would not in anyway change or interfere with the rest of the Forum, but would allow us to ‘try out’ such an addition for a few months, to see how it would work. If it is good, we keep it, if it has problems, we can discuss improvements or even, if the experiment is a failure, we can delete it.

This Forum has three top level boards - General, Feedback and International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum - Info
Center
I was rather hoping that Reviews could be made into a new top level board with its two sub boards.

I think there are two or three agreements to add this new board, and as yet no disagreements, so, is it appropriate to hand this over to you and your fellow admins for your final say? - Remember, it is just a test - we can always change it if needs be.

Derek

Good day Derek.

You are correct that is should be a simple matter to add a board.
Approval will be sought after a firm consensus is acquired and the format dialed in.

So far, not too many forum members have put their two cents in…

But, for now, a test of how this can work for a while, perhaps we can just accumulate some of the subject posts within a thread to be then transferred to the new board.

SS

Edit: Spelling

If the volume of knot testing posts were so much as to overwhelm the Practical Knots forum, I could see possibly having a separate board for it.

But currently, such posts are so few and far between, I can’t see it being a problem for the Practical Knots forum.

Thanks Roo,

Apart from your opinion that those who would like a specific board, cannot justify it on volume grounds, can you make an argument for NOT having a trial of such a facility? I am fairly confident that the Admins are more likely to be swayed by reasons that would compromise IGKT principles and reputation, rather than just a ‘I don’t think we need it’.

Simplicity is a good aim. Having a separate board for every variation of Practical Knot topics violates that principle.

Thanks Scott,

So far, not too many forum members have put there two cents in...

Given that this new board and its topics might only attract attention from 4 or 5 prolific posters, what sort of consensus are you wanting to see?

Derek

@ Roo

Simplicity is a good aim. Having a separate board for every variation of Practical Knot topics violates that principle.

I totally agree, and would likewise argue against "Having a separate board for every variation of Practical Knot topics ". Of course that is certainly not what is being suggested with the proposed Review Board.

As well as Simplicity, I would also suggest that Clarity is a good aim, and again, the proposed board is aimed at untangling the clutter of vastly differing posts, such that readers may more easily focus on the fields they find interesting.

The proposal that we untangle Decorative from Functional was one such proposal and has proven to be hugely successful.

Derek

Hi Derek.

I would like to see as many as possible in the next days. It would be good if the prolific and non-prolific (occasional) posters chimed in.

SS

I think that most people who are interested in Practical Knots would also like to see Practical Knot test results.

However, most people who are interested in knotting in general almost always focus either on decorative or practical knots, but not both equally. So in that case it makes sense to have separate boards.

Since we’re talking about it, I’d like the New Knot Investigation Board to go away. I’m tired of not knowing if I’m going to be clicking on a Practical or Decorative knot topic. The main forums can easily absorb the once-a-week (or less) new knot investigation topic.

Hi Derek.

I would like to see as many as possible in the next days. It would be good if the prolific and non-prolific (occasional) posters chimed in.

SS

I am certain we can both agree on that, but equally, I am sure we are neither of us naive enough to believe that it will happen. Contrary to Roo’s assertion that most practical knotters will be interested in test reports, they may read them, but the fact remains very few are interested in commenting, questioning or interpreting the findings.

How should we interpret your response? If there are no more ‘chimes’, is the request dead in the water?

Derek

I actually mostly agree with you here. As with most topics, the number of reads far exceeds the number of replies. That’s normal.

I won’t split hairs on what level of interpretation people may or may not conduct on their own.

Not dead in the water at all. Just wanted to have more input from additional people. Perhaps I am naive… sorry.

I personally think it would be a good endeavor and helpful to the rope/knot users who come searching for this type of data and reports.

roo’s assertion is his personal opinion and perhaps desire that he is entitled to.

SS

Since we're talking about it, I'd like the New Knot Investigation Board to go away. I'm tired of not knowing if I'm going to be clicking on a Practical or Decorative knot topic. The main forums can easily absorb the once-a-week (or less) new knot investigation topic.

I am not inclined to remove that board. I believe it is useful to the forum readers.

SS

OK. In the spirit of testing, let us test that belief:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6221.0

:wink:

LOL, Gem…

Personally, I like that little board, and it certainly attracts a large number of reads.

I am not so taken by the ‘hopeful’ new knot posts, but do enjoy the occasional new (or rediscovered old) way of tying a knot.. As much as I agree with you that I don’t like ‘Decoratives’ spoiling my tea, I really haven’t found (m)any on there.

But the big issue tho’ is - will the poll get any more than 2 votes???

Derek

You have my outline of a step --if not a giant leap-- forward
above, in which a thread carries a “sticky”/master OP
listing test reports, and follow-on posts to this thread would
be citations of other reports of possible interest which then
should be added by Modification to the OP master list.
Discussion of any given report(s) would come in separate
threads, and all of this under Practical Knots I suppose.

But you envision threads that themselves are reports and
which have follow-on posts of review/discussion, and all
of this wants a superstructure above thread which would
be a new (sub-)forum, with an obvious title, for recognition.
Oh, I get that (now); but, really, how many posts would actually
come to such a forum? --Dave Richards, Tom Moyer, Yachting
Monthly, etc. test reports will continue to be of interest to us,
and continue to be made on their own terms and put in their
own ways (possibly in a mag.'s print pages un-URLinkable,
but amenable to someone’s summarizing-reporting).

Still, as a conspicuous collection of testing discussion of
whatever sort, a concentrated presentation would help
–if we have a critical mass to constitute that. Could it
be a forum-wise “child” forum to Practical Knots or some
other extant forum? And a new forum could also carry as its
OP a listing as I envisioned, along with guidance on what is
expected or hoped-for in testing & reporting.

I think that it’s possible to move thread from current to
new places if need be? --otherwise, there is simple pasting
& replication/duplication to get the posts to the new spot,
should that become the way forward.

–dl*

ps : I’m still remiss in fully responding to the Yachting
mag. test report, and others.

@ Dan

Could it be a forum-wise "child" forum to Practical Knots or some other extant forum?

I do not understand the suggestion that we need to ‘fudge’ or ‘squeeze in’ a child board into the existing structure.

SMF, the engine which runs this forum is hugely capable, it is used by companies with thousands of active posters and millions of posts. Just take a look at the Bitcoin forum https://bitcointalk.org/ - it has five major boards and dozens of sub boards, allowing them to clearly lay out the various areas of interest for their members.

It is easy to add a new top level board (Reviews), and a couple of sub boards (Reports) (books and Publications) (IGKT Testing Guidelines) etc. - Run them for a couple of months and review their value, headings etc. Easy to set up and if they cause a problem, ultra easy to take back down again.

OK, so there may only be a handful of posts, but if so, what is the harm? And if it attracts some attention from the people who wrote the reports, and perhaps their followers, all the better - we will be doing what the IGKT is here for.

So how about it Dan - give it a try?

Derek

The key issue as i see it is that the IGKT can position itself as an easy to find/search one-stop-shop for knot testers, knot test reports and peer review of those reports.

As it currently stands, where exactly does a would-be knot tester post results and seek peer review? For the IGKT’s part, it is an incoherent mess. It is not easy to search for, and find knot test report in one coherent place.

The default site to publish appears to be the ITRS Link: http://itrsonline.org/

But peer review/discussion doesn’t occur at the ITRS site.
Also, there appears to be a single-minded and nauseating default mind-set that MBS yield is THE defining factor for determining knot performance. That is, the default mind-set is ‘Knot A’ versus ‘Knot B’ in a pull-it-till-it-breaks contest - with the winner of the contest being declared ‘superior’.

There are many people undertaking knot testing around the world…and where exactly do they go to publish their reports and to seek peer review of their reports? As stated, the ITRS is one place but, you dont receive advice and/or peer review feedback.

The IGKT has an opportunity to position itself as the world clearing house for all knot testers and test reports.
Its a case of… “If you build it, they will come”.

So, because there is essentially no where to go at the present moment, knot testers continue to act in isolation and publish their findings as they see fit - right or ludicrously wrong - with no mechanism for any critical peer review. And so misinformation and sometimes disinformation continues to propagate.

As it currently stands, few see the IGKT as being a credible place to publish knot test reports and to seek expert peer review. For example, Richard Delaney, Grant Prattley, Tom Evans, etc, are semi-professional knot testers who continue to test and publish their results. These are the type of individuals whom the IGKT could have as a target market.

Over time, you begin to gain momentum and you reach a critical mass of knot testers. Word-of-mouth helps too.

I see this as such a critically important matter that it warrants creation of its own separate topic category. It should be easy for people around the world to search for and find knot test reports. The idea is that you make it EASY to find, dont bury it in-between or underneath something. Make it stand out like the proverbial!

I might also add that when members of the IGKT provide critical feedback, it should be done in a respectful manner - using science as voice. If we berate or scold the author of the test report - they will likely feel vilified and not return in the future. So we need to be careful to be constructive and not destructive in our criticisms of their reports.

The IGKT has a real opportunity to make a difference…I truly hope that the decision makers share this vision :slight_smile:

PS I was thinking about Elon Musk and SpaceX and how they are changing the default mindset of access to space. The default mindset has been to build a rocket, use it once and then throw it away. Its like building a Boeing 747 jet, fly it once from point A to point B and then throw it away. Elon Musk now has his ‘block 5’ Falcon 9 rocket which can be re-used 10 times with just inspections and maybe up to 100 times with some refurbishment. This is changing the paradigm - and shaking up the entire space industry (for the better). Elon is making a real difference…he has a vision and the will-power to see it through. It will revolutionize access to space and make human kind as a multi-planet species.

Obviously the IGKT is not Elon Musk, nor is it SpaceX. But, the IGKT is in a position to make a real difference!

Excellent argument - well said.

Derek

I’ll go out on a limb and state that this additional test is pointless. Newton’s laws have been pretty well tested, so we can categorically state that the force exerted by your hoist at one end is equal and opposite to the force exerted by the tree on the other end. It is about as useful as doing the tests under different phases of the moon.