True Adjustable Loop Knot or TALK for short

New Knot Investigations
1

Hello, my name is John Hartzog, I am 61 and live in Florida, USA. My story begins in the late 90’s. At the time I was working the midnight shift at a new roadway toll plaza that wasn’t very busy so I had plenty of time on my hands. A few years prior I had taken up dual line sport kiting as a hobby (never did get good at it). I had bought a pair of small stunt kites that were trained together with 5 train lines that were supposed to be of equal length. They were tied in hollow core Dacron kite line and they were anything but of equal length. The need for train lines to be exactly equal is important because unequal lines means an unstable train. This is a problem with 2 trained kites, a disaster with more. I suck at tying lines of equal length using the traditional Double Overhand Loop Knot, at least at both ends of the line.

I knew that there had to be an adjustable loop knot available and wondered why no one was using it. So I borrowed every book the library system had on knot and set out at night at work to find it ( I bought a copy of The Ashley Book of Knots). But search as I did, I was so disappointed that there just was not such a not in existence. Now I knew why no one used one. Then late one night as I sat in my booth practicing a few knots from a book I tied a loose Figure of Eight Knot. Playing around I passed the free end (working end) through the loops of the Figure of Eight Knot and pulled it tight with a snap by putting my finger into the loop made by the free end and pulling on the standing part. Lo and behold I sat in amazement as studied the loop knot in my hands. It was exactly what I was looking for! I could not believe that I had discovered, or invented a new knot so for years I kept looking and asking others as I showed them my knot. But to this day I have never found the knot in any publication that I have looked in.

To this very day I have a hard time believing that I have actually come up with a new knot. I have been so afraid that I have not that I have only sent it to one person in the kiting world, Rod Beamgard, in order for them to see if they knew of the knots existence. He was unable to find anyone who had seen the knot before. I still have reservations about sharing this because I am so afraid that either I have not discovered a new knot, or I have waited nearly 20 year and some one else had discovered it and has submitted it. But here goes.

I have used the TALK to successfully tie kite train lines in hollow core 150 lb.test Dacron. The knot has not ever slipped in this line. I have successfully made 100 foot and 150 foot long dual line kite flying lines, of exact equal length, made of 75 to 150 lb. test twisted and braided Spectra kite line after sleeving the Spectra line with 150 ld. test hollow core Dacron. I have never had the TALK slip in these flight lines. I have used these lines on large kites that have a heavy pull, strong enough to drag my lovely 110 pound wife down the flying field. I have tied the TALK in Para Cord and tested it to the extent of my strength and have never had the line slip even though the end of the loop was open, just my finger stuck in the open loop. I have tied the TALK in 1/4" thick Nylon rope without the knot slipping. I have also tied the TALK in various strings, where it can be almost impossible to adjust because it cinches so tightly. I have also tied the TALK in natural hemp rope of small diameter and never had the knot slip.

Because of the way the force is directed straight down the standing part when pressure is exerted at the apex of the loop, the cord is cinched tightly and will not slip. Of course extra strength is added when the loop is actually looped around an object and secured with a simple hitch. The less slippery the line the tighter the knot becomes although I have tied it in bare braided Spectra kite line and it held. I have tied it in slender rubber and plastic coated braided core electrical wire. It held.

I am attaching 2 pics showing how I tie the TALK. I have even tied it in the opposite “hand” by reversing the way the Figure of Eight knot is tied.

Fig. 1 shows a Figure of Eight knot with the working part passed back under the right hand loop on the same side that it first passed. Then passed over the center crossing, then passing under the left hand loop beneath the standing part. To cinch the knot simply hold the working end and the standing part in one hand while placing a finger inside the loop created to the right of the Figure of Eight Knot and pull fast and hard.

Fig. 2 shows the cinched TALK. To adjust the loop thus adjusting the length of the line overall, simply hold the central part of the TALK and pull on the working end to loosen the knot. Once loose simply adjust the loop longer or smaller by pulling either the inside or outside of the working end.

The TALK can be used anywhere a Double Overhand Loop is used and in much the same way only with the added benefit of adjustability.

2

Welcome to the forum John. I don’t recall the configuration you show here but there are a number of ways of rethreading a figure 8 knot and others may have come across this before. I would however draw your attention to the simpler - but similar in the way it works - bowstring knot (Ashley #151). Try comparing the two and see what you think.

Barry

3

This loop knot came up in the original discussions on rec.crafts.knots on the HFP Slippery 8 Loop:

Just thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

I found a knot that looks very much like the knot seen here. It’s
published in Graumont & Hensell “Encyclopedia of knots and fancy rope
work” as the figure of eight throat tie (page 97, plate 45 knot 308 --in
my first edition I don’t know about current numbers etc.). There is
however a difference between that knot and the present one. The end
forming the loop passes through the figure of eight knot from the other
side (i.e. in present knot standing end and running end lie on opposite
sides of knot, in figure of eight throat knot the standing end and
running end lie on the same side). I think the debate should focus on
whether this modification justifies a new name.

John Walker

4

Regarding adjustable loops based on a fig.8 knot tied on the Standing Part before the eye, it is very easy to see that it is better if the Working End after the eye follows the same path as the one you show, but traces it in the opposite direction.
My preferred adjustable loops are the two loops shown in the attached pictures, where, instead of a fig.8 knot, we use a symmetric or an asymmetric Pretzel-shaped knot. These loops are more secure than the fig.8-based loops - perhaps because the line in a Pretzel-shaped nub is less convoluted than the line in a fig.8 nub, and this means that the tensile forces which run along it can nip a penetrating line more efficiently, without been “wasted” inside the nub itself.

Two things determine how tightly the nub can squeeze the penetrating line, in order to immobilize it. First, how convoluted the nub is - with very complex nubs, the tensile forces are “wasted” inside the many internal turns, leaving a small, only, percentage of them able to reach the penetrating line. We can describe a very convoluted nub as a semi-rigid “cocoon” which encircles the penetrating line, but also “protects” it, to some degree, from been constricted as much as possible. Second, the shape of the continuation of the returning eye leg. When it is L-shaped or helical, i.e., when it offers a “handle” by which the nub can grab it tightly, a curvilinear segment which works like an obstacle that can not slip through the nub as easily as a segment of a straight line, the situation improves. That is why it is always better to make the continuation of the returning eye leg enter into the nub through the opposite direction of the one you show, independently of the form of the nub ( fig.8-shaped or Pretzel-shaped).

P.S. Another reason I prefer a Pretzel-shaped nub, rather than a fig.8-based one, is that the former can easily lead to a TIB knot, as it happens with the Pretzel loop, or the Helical-Strangle loop, or the asymmetric-Pretzel-based Helical loop - but that is a matter we better discuss in another thread.

10. simple adjustable helical loop.JPG

5

Thanks.

I did look at and tied knot 151. Close but it is not my knot. It is simpler and I think it is more likely to fail under heavy loads tha the TALK.

6

Again, not my Knot. It is tied completely different and does not look the same once pulled tight.

7

This sounds much like me, who in a time of much lesser
knots knowledge (prior any real attention, even), had sought
just the same sort of thing, w/o luck. IIRC, it might’ve been
some similar working of the overhand knot as Sweeney points
to in Ashley --it was for an activity never done (of tying off
upperclassmen dorm doorknobs on opposite sides …).

And otherwise, in looking back to where what I’ve come to
call “the Quick8 eyeknot” was first captured in ink by me,
I find far earlier reaches into this structure though always
with some collared finish of the tail (bowlinesque & other),
which to my mind show that I had not then realized that
the fig.8 main body would nip the tail adequately (in an
evenly loaded eye)! These efforts came in the '80s and maybe
also later (in ignorance of earlier fiddling, I suppose, alas).

More recently, I had the quick8 tested with the simple extension
of tucking the tail back through the main nip of the fig.8
–i.e., between the eye legs at their entry-- in 5/16" 12-strand
HMPE rope; this held to rupture, and IMO didn’t show hard pulling
to this final tuck (i.e., perhaps that tuck was unneeded here).
It was not as strong as any of the other eye knots (4?) tested
by me, IIRC. Cf.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3810.msg22474#msg22474
[presentation of Lehman8 & Quick8, and tested Dyneema bits]

Is there a good site/image(s) you can point to that will
show kite structures such as you’re discussing?

Cheers,
–dl*

8

???
It is tied exactly like what you (we) present, insofar as
one can determine its tying --i.e., an image of the tied
but open/loose structure is shown devoid of any sort
of tying instruction or indication of S.Part/tail distinction
(could’ve been referring to a fig.8 noose for all one
can tell!). (This lousy presentation is typical of this bad book!)
But the shown form matches that shown here,
just w/ambiguity of loading, and purpose of knot.

–dl*

9

These loops are more secure than the fig.8-based loops - perhaps because the line in a Pretzel-shaped nub is less convoluted than the line in a fig.8 nub, and this means that the tensile forces which run along it can nip a penetrating line more efficiently, without been “wasted” inside the nub itself.

I have never had the TALK slip or break under tension. Sport kites of the large size can exert enough force to pull someone down the flying field. The loop is attached to the bridle with a hitch, which puts friction at the end of the loop. The added friction is not necessary to keep the loop from slipping, but it may give the user peace of mind. I don’t think that the Pretzel knot based loop is any better than the Talk.

10

Because of the limit of the size and number of pic allowed per post I had to reduce my pics to the size shown. I will find some larger cord/rope and post my pics elsewhere and simply put a link to them so everyone can see clearly just how the TALK is tied.

11

I think you may be reading too quickly. The HFP Slippery 8 is not your knot, but the cousin described by John Walker is. The HFP Slippery 8 has better holding power due to the increased total angle of curvature of the final leg’s knotted path.

12

This is a RARE incident I agree with the author of the above comment - myself I had described this curvature as an L-shaped “handle”, an obstacle regarding slippage, and to obtain it one has to drive the continuation of the returning eye leg through the nub from the “upper” to the “lower” part of it ( that is, towards the same direction the continuation of the Standing End follows to reach the tip of the eye) .

13

Gentlemen,

I am not a professional knot tier. All your nomenclature is lost on me, so it is hard for me to argue my point. I will say this, my knot, which I have yet to find in any book I have read, including The Ashley Book of Knots, serves the purpose in which it was intended and it serves it flawlessly. The knot was intended to be tied in one or both ends of hollow core Dacron kite flying line as well as Spectra kite flying line sleeved with hollow core Dacron. The ease of adjustability was one of the things that I was looking for and the TALK adjusts with a simple pull of the working end. Once the adjustment has been made a simple pull on the standing part and the apex of the loop, locks the knot down. The adjustment does not loosen the basic Figure of Eight knot so there is no excess movement of the loop. Once the adjustment is made the change in length of the line is stable and the cinching of the knot does not disturb the over all length of the line.

When in use on a train line, or a bridle line or a flight line, the more the force on the line, the tighter the knot becomes. If the knot is tied in very thin line and too much tension is place on the line, it becomes impossible to untie. I have not tested it to the point of destruction as I do not have the money or means to do so. But I stand by my knot and win or lose I will but it up to all other adjustable loop knot tied in the same line.

Once I can find a thicker line I will take step by step pictures, post them elsewhere where I can post ANY NUMBER OF LARGE PICS then post a link to the pics here.

14

I don’t doubt you. Once the knot is used in other applications where the legs may be loaded unequally due to object rotation, high friction or other factors, then you may have to revisit some of the points discussed in this thread.

15

Please site me an instance where this might occur.

16

So, for relative object rotation, imagine a line swinging around a post or branch. As the surface digs into the rope, it causes one leg to take more load than the other.

Such an effect can also happen when something traps or clamps the loop legs, such as a when an object is in a pile of other objects, or when the cross-section of an object contains a highly acute angle that wedges the rope in. In this case, even a tiny change of line direction would then put much more load on one leg of the loop.

17

Your images above are perfectly clear, as is the one URLinked
to of this forum by me, and that cited in EKFR --there is no
ambiguity as far as the starting structure of the knots is
concerned, nor in your & my case of the drawn-up & set
knot. And this should be clear to you, too! (The book doesn’t
show clear loading : it’s two ends are of equal length and seized
–presumably seized for keeping in place for photography–;
and the brief verbal entry for this knot is typical nonsense for
this book.)

–dl*

18

Hello and welcome, Oneloneknot. I agree that Ashley #151 is not the same as your TALK knot. I don’t think Sweeney meant that it was, either, he probably just wanted to show you something you could compare your TALK to. And that bowstring knot is more likely to fail, too, I’m sure. I tried your figure 8 eye variant, and just like you said, it holds very well. Amazingly so, because I always thought you should reeve the working end through the figure 8 from the other end, but your version is neater. I know another adjustable loop, perhaps the best there is, which is described in the 1946 book “The Scouts Book Of Gadgets And Dodges”, on page 14. http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/gadgets.pdf Maybe it’s not of much use for a kite, but it’s very clever, nonetheless.

Then there’s the “Capstan Knot” which is not to be confused with the “Collar and Capstan knot” used by anglers, nor with the “Towboat Hitch” that’s apparently also called “Capstan Hitch”. The Capstan knot I mean is described by Ohrvall, (he calls it “gangspelsknut”) and it has the peculiar property that it is adjustable, but only once. After you pull on the tail it is locked, and difficult to adjust further. Image attached.

I don’t know if this Capstan Knot is any good for a kite, but it is quite peculiar, and you may like to try it out, if you’re not familiar with it already. It works the opposite way of the TALK knot, since with the Capstan Knot we lock it by pulling on the tail, but your knot locks by pulling on the standing part. I like your knot better than the capstan knot, though, because yours is easier to adjust.

Twine

19

Not really… What it does, can be done with one single knot, instead of two. Also, it would be better if the second / “higher” overhand knot, which secures the Tail End, would had been tighter than the first / “lower” one, which only re-directs the continuation of the returning eye leg downwards - and not vice versa, as it is the case in this adjustable loop. Nevertheless, it is conceptually simple, that is true, and it is based on the method of adding an L-shaped ( here, a U-shaped *), or a helically-shaped, curvilinear segment ( a “handle”/ “obstacle” ) on the line one wants to be nipped and immobilized, as in the other knots discussed in this thread.

  • A U-shaped segment of a tensioned loop makes the adjustment a two-step, and somewhat more difficult process. I prefer an L-shaped “handle”.
20

Plese notice that this rope mechanism (we shouldn’t call it a knot, I think) exposes part of the bound tail between the two overhand knots. That is clever because that exposed part can be gripped and pulled for adjustment through one of the overhands at a time, which is easier than if it was gripped with the same total force by only a single knot where you would have to overcome the same friction in one go.

I understand and agree with your point about having the last knot around the tail end gripping harder than the other. Without actually trying this, I guess the effect we are after could be achieved by instead having the other knot (where the working end is bent back) grip looser around the tail. That could be done by making that knot a figure 8 or even a figure 9. It is my experience that these knots don’t bind with the same force as a regular overhand knot.

Or perhaps the last overhand knot could be replaced with two half-hitches? I havent tried, so I can’t really be sure about how good it would be.

I just tried it. The figure 8 for some reason seems to grip harder in this configuration than the regular overhand. And with two half-hitches to lock the end of the tail in place the whole thing turned out to be much more difficult to adjust, at least when trying to expand the loop. Pulling it tighter was easier. I tried with a cow-hitch as well, but that tends to deform into a locking knot when you don't expect it, so it was no good.

Now I think the original knot was good enough, no need to improve it.

Twine