I was playing around with Ashleys stopper trying to develope a new stopper. I came up with one I have’nt seen before. Does this knot have a name? Or did i find one that is’nt named yet? Check it out and see what you think. It makes a nice bulky stopper knot. I added white lines to the pictures for clarity.
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/8128_1.jpg
Voila, a stopper according to The Rule! It looks good,
but before getting to it, completely, I was moved to try a
version where the SPart’s arc/bight is given a half turn,
right side over left, then the tuck just as you show:
this seems to take the respective sides of the SPart’s
arc more easily into it and for turning around & nipping
the end. Btw, I’m working with a fairly stiff 11mm
caving kernmantle (BWII); you appear to have a quite
supple yachting line, dble. braid?
I’ve not seen the knot before.
Thanks for the reply Dan. It seems out of 30 people thats viewd this post your the only one with an opinion. :-/
Thanks for the reply Dan. It seems out of 30 people thats viewd this post your the only one with an opinion. :-/Or perhaps the others will have [i]considered[/i] opinions currently taking shape via some knot "popping" by Jimbo or PABPRES, or other extended fiddling.
I do have an opinion, but not enough knowledge on the top of my head and I am to lazy to check the facts.
But this is a fairly simple knot and it is either found and in use or found and put to rest because there are better alternatives.
Good luck in finding which it turns out to be.
Willeke
Just because its simple doesnt mean it has actually been named and put to use. Ashleys stopper is simple also, but he still got to name it.
it is either found and in use, or found and put to rest because there are better alternatives.One would like to think this, but it's hardly true. I've seen many knot structures in use that could ([i]should[/i]) be replaced with simpler and even more effective ones, but aren't. The ones in use work well enough and are familiar, and the user moves on. Ashley's Stopper is such a knot, as is Rosendahl's bend ("Zeppelin"), but are they much used (and since when)? The Twixie is also simple and effective, but aside from Geoffrey's article in [i]KM[/i], I'm unaware of any other occurrence of it (even in his own books!)?
The discovery and promulgation of alternatives is erractic; there is much
resistance to new ideas.
Just because its simple doesnt mean it has actually been named and put to use. Ashley's stopper is simple also, but he still got to name it.And his name has happily been mostly overridden by the name we're now using ("Oysterman's Stopper" being a misnomer, as is also "Rigger's Bend" & "Heaving Line Bend" (as told by Sten a few recent [i]KMs[/i] ago)). Naming knots is tough! Names that seem apt when considering only a small set of knots (of different types) can be seen to be equally apt for a collection of versions & variations, once revealed, for those names that try to be descriptive (e.g. "overhand loop"). Personal names are sometimes unique, but sometimes misleading ("Hunter's Bend" isn't used by hunters any more than by riggers (or smiths, for that matter!)), and don't help if a knot fiddler discovers loads of knots (Franz Bachmann has many friction hitches beyond what carries his name).
I should have said: “better or more known alternatives”.
But what we search are the knots that have made it to paper, (and its modern replacements as internet,) but there are a lot of knots in daily use that never officially have been named.
At work we often use the packaging knot and none of my fellow workers know that it even has a name, and several of those fellow workers find it to difficult to remember the final half hitch to lock it so they use all kinds of different ways to tie the knot off, several failing more often than not but some successfull. None of those knots has been named, (other than, in my mind, “it is the packaging knot finished Stephans way”,) but they do still exist.
I belief that all simple effective knots have been found and are in use somewere in the world, but often not made it to the books.
Most books used to be written for sailors and ignored all knots used by landsfolk, foreigners and those knots not approved of my the masters aboard. From the start of printed knot manuals the knots not included were seen as inferior, because they were not in the books. And from the time people did not learn their knots from an older generation but from the books more and more knots have disapeared from view (or seemed to) in the western world but will still be used were this developement has not yet taken place.
If asked for an opinion, you can be sure to get one from me.
Willeke
Willeke,
I feel the stopper knot Shown in this post, weather I discovered it or not, is a very good stopper knot. I feel it is bulkier and has a better overall shape than Ashleys stopper. I read alot about ashleys stopper, but have never seen this one. Thas what lead me to believe that it has not been published. In my opinion it is a better Stopper knot than any I have seen yet.
hello Mike..
…it is indeed a great little knot!..
…i’m not sure but i do think that there is an
IGKT committee formed just for the sole
purpose of settling these exact issues?!
…wouldn’t it be cool to have a knot named
after you?!!..
Dan-Alaska 8)
hmmm…maybe we can discuss it in
IGKT Knot_Chat next week!?! :
Anyone found oout if this knot has a name yet? or do I get to name it? ;D
Btw, for a 4-sided version of Ashley's Stopper, follow that Nip-The-End rule, previously described, for #1125. (Poor Jimbo has another "bight" to deal with, if he chooses.)knudeNoggin
Knot me, man!! I refuse to deal with bights! I just “knibble”!! Well, at least you got the “poor” part right! ;D
(Insert your own mental picture for the “smiley” for “takes tongue back OUT of cheek”.)
Especially since DanL was kind enough to clue us all in to the underlying technique!! I’m a stopper-knot-inventin’-fool since then!! I may even stop making eye splices & just build stopper knots from here on in!! 
You reckon the Good People of Cordage can take it?
And the “turban” look in Ashley’s Oysterman’s (son of Thrain, son of Dain, son of Throth, son of Pika, lord of the Talus on the High Mountains ;D) Stopper might look better with four "{whatever-you-wanna-call-it}"s instead of three. How does the “nip the end rule” make the “curvy bits” come out to four? Double the OH before you “nip the end”, perhaps? Tried that, did it wrong, as it looks like a pile of poo. Just curious, as I do think I’d like to see four “knees” there (sorry I said "bights" everybody! It was the first word that came out of my keyboard! I promise to only say “curvy bits” like a real pro henceforth. :-[). Three obviously works, but there’s a specific application I have in mind where the “square”-ish look of four “curves” at the “stopping end” (“working end”? “knot/hole interface”? what’s in a name?) of the knot would work exceptionally well. And yes, as soon as I can get (use of) a digicam I’ll be tossing my “Pet Rope Harness” (not its real name) into the “fray”…
I’d still like to get rid of that “cigar”, though… IF that won’t cause it to fail!! So far nary a stopper has the “eye appeal” of the Tack/Manrope knot, IMNERHO. (Yes, there’s a “Jimbo story” about a stopper & an eye, but I’m saving that for later.)
TTFN, kinkers! Back to work!
Hi Jimbo, Don’t get rid of the “cigar”, or at least consider keeping it. If you tug on the cigar you have a pretty good chance of untieing the stopper (and that seems to apply to the Oysterman and all these discussed above). If you bury the end then the knot may become a forever feature of your pet rope.
If you bury the end then the knot may become a forever feature of your pet rope.Howdy, Mr. President!
If you could see what my former favorite stopper knots look like - especially after being whacked up against a cleat horn a few (dozen) times, you might not throw “forever” about so readily!
You’re right, of course!! But in this particular case, I want “forever”. I’m more worried that there’s nothing but attitude keeping the SPart from reeving through the knot itself… I haven’t hauled on a “good” one yet, though (who has?), so it’s all still speculation.
Glad yer back!
Hi Jimbo, I never went away. “Forever” is great in mono filiment and baleing twine. Perhaps in marital bliss. As long as one underatands the final result… go for it. Many knots jam as if welded. Somtimes good and sometimes bad. I sort of thought the subject was “stopper knots” (and then made the unforgiveable leap to “untieable knots”). I am 60 today and have slipped into early “oldtimers” without a blink. Stupid of me to think of stoppers as being untied from time to time. I need to rethink this whole “stopper mess”. When buiding my house I was putting some washers in my pocket. One has to put holes in every stud for wire. If you need to tie off on that stud… if a stopper won’t work put a washer on the line and then tie a stopper. Just a thought.
Jimbo; Well, I’ve thought about it and I still want to be able to untie the stopper knot. So the ones that jam are of little use to me. And the “cigar” tail (the working end) left sticking out is just the thing for getting a start on the untieing process. I’m still playing around with the original knot posted at the beginning of this thread and haven’t decided yet. It does seem to jam a bit. It also seems to not bulk larger than the Oysterman’s Stopper. It looks larger. But it still pulls through the same size holes.
Yes, Ashley's Stopper (eschew the "oysterman's" myth);D Did you like my "lineage" joke? I'll stop using "oysterman's" ([i]can't even spell it, besides, where's the umlaut on this keyboard?[/i]), but I may need help cutting back on the nomenclature jokes. I'm just knot-headed enough to throw a kink in a cord & if anyone insists on my giving it a name, I'll make one up on the spot! Don't care what you call it, I just want to secure "this" to "that" using this piece of rope. I prefer to point out the "features" of the knot & why that feature is needed at that point -- DanL's "nipping bight" is an example. This is how I see knots anyway; "[i]this[/i] part keeps [i]that[/i] part from moving, [i]this [b]other[/b][/i] part is how you untie it" -- that sort of thing.
Or (back on topic) I just want to keep this piece of rope from leaving me, if I have to let it go.
Still on topic, you can tell my answer to the original poster would be "call it what you want to call it, unless someone can give you a name you like better. My “case in point” is what motiviated me to sign up here: “My” “Single Bottle Knot” nee “Jimbo’s Jug Sling”. I can’t even remember how long I’ve been throwing that knot, and never ever thought of a name until a neice asked. “Uh… Well… What do you want to call it, dear Neice?” I just dropped the “Uncle” for public consumption. Durned but my brother & sister have some smart kids!!!
As someone wearing a mustache just like mine once said, “it ain’t about ABOoK, it’s about a clever kink in a cord.”
To Roy: I probably forgot to tell you that what got me “into” knotting (at maybe age 3 or 4, IIRC) was UNtying a knot, so your desire to remove said stopper is near & dear to my heart!! Just not in one of my “Pet Rope Harnesses”. So yes, I completely agree, but show me how to untie a Manrope/Tack knot after following Hervey Garrett-Smith’s instructions. That’s the “look” I’m after, but in smallish (pet harness sized - say something no bigger than your index finger) Kernmantle (not plait, as I need a “pretty” eye on the other end and I’d rather look at potato eyes than plait eyes!!!).
Anyway, as to the topic (which I apologize for somewhat hijacking even though this started in my “Ashley’s” thread), the “Double-Crossed Figure Eight” (made that up just this moment) Stopper looks like something I’ll use, perhaps instead of my customary double OH stoppers (which want a hatchet to untie).
Jimbo; Well, I've thought about it and I still want to be able to untie the stopper knot. So the ones that jam are of little use to me.Playing around w/noose-hitches, I realized that one would make a good stopper, and should meet Roy's desire for untying. Begin w/a Fig.8 stopper form, loose--ref. #520's orientation for this direction--; now tuck the end back down through the space shown to the right of the SPart (yes, the partition is somewhat illusary--i.e., you're tucking into the lower loop of material, but ...)--this would be going in a SSE (compass) direction. You've thereby formed an Overhand around the SPart at this point; work this tight by pulling on the non-end end of this component structure, dressing it to be oriented like the Oh.hitch #1821. (Don't pull too much on END.) Finally, tuck the end in a natural way back around up through the upper loop of the orignal Fig.8, orienting it near the SPart (right side of itself (end) as shown in ref. image #520). Draw down the SPart; haul on the end; iterate ... .
.:. The result should lightly jam in that there should be parallel turns of rope
on either side of the SPart to give a good nip of it. But this nip won’t be further
strengthened by loading in use, and one should be able to readily push loose
the longer, curving part of the stopper face.
Anyone found out if this knot has a name yet? or do I get to name it? ;DThis question implies an either-or condition and some relationship therein which I don't see evidenced in knot-world reality. :P
I’ll suggest “Tucked Fig.8 Noose Stopper”, based on #1116.
Btw, for a 4-sided version of Ashley’s Stopper, follow that Nip-The-End
rule, previously described, for #1125. (Poor Jimbo has another
“bight” to deal with, if he chooses.)
knudeNoggin
And the "turban" look in Ashley's Oysterman's ([i]son of Thrain, son of Dain, son of Throth, son of Pika, lord of the Talus on the High Mountains[/i] ;D) Stopper might look better with four "{whatever-you-wanna-call-it}"s instead of three. How does the "nip the end rule" make the "curvy bits" come out to four? Double the OH before you "nip the end", perhaps?Yes, Ashley's Stopper (eschew the "oysterman's" myth) simply gets one extra [i]turban[/i] tuck as it were, and when the end's brought up around the edge into the S.Part's nipping, it makes another whatever-U-call-it. Awkward thing is that one needs to make these turban-tucks of end before working anything tight, so that working is more point of trouble, and asks for more length of end for the tightening--a bigger [i]cigar[/i].
Roy likes to untie, so finishing with a bight vice end might aid that–not so
much for pulling the end like a slipped reef for shoes, but just to give more
material in the working which tends to enable loosening.
knudeNoggin