Hello All
;D Happy New Years ;D
I am looking for a caribiner hitch that does two things
1)Does not wear on the rope as much as a munther hitch.
2)Can be used with a munther mule.
turks head 54
I have not used the Munter hitch for rappelling. Does it cause wear on the rope? How does the amount of wear compare to various rappel devices?
As an answer to you question Bob:
The munther hitch causes damage to the rope because the rope
rubs up against itself and causes glazing. Using a belay device or a
figure of eight rappelling device is better for the rope than using
the munther hitch.
th54
That is exactly what I suspected and why I never used it.
A quote from one of my earlier posts:
The munther hitch causes damage to the rope because the rope
rubs up against itself and causes glazing.
That is precisely why I am looking for an alternative hitch
th54
Well, there is the old carabiner wrap. Just wrap the rope in a spiral around the spine of the caabiner about three times. In order to reduce the sharp bends and distribute the heating, Bill plummer wrapped the rope around a chain of three carabiners. I do not think this caught on. You could wrap the rope around the top of an HMS carabiner 3 or 4 times. This would have the disadvantage of concentrating the frictional heat in a small amount of metal. It might also slip into a spiral wrap.
THat might be a good alternative.
th54
You can use a crossed carabiner brake:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Rappel/CarabinerPages/Carabiner5.html
Is this something you’ve observed, or just believe to happen?!
I’ve never read any climber reporting such damage from using the hitch,
but I sense that it’s more of a technique kept on reserve, just in case,
than actually brought to practice, given the usual alternatives and their
well expected need. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that glazing occurs,
given that abseils are typically borne by twin ropes and of rather light
loads, and that no part of the rope bears contact more than momentarily
with anything–the rope-on-rope bit, i.p., being with each part moving
away from the other.
Neither have I heard all so much of glazing resulting from the use
–which is more common–of the Munter (yes: no ‘eu’, btw; no umlaut)
when arresting a fall, in which the rope is both single and much more
tensioned!
This sounds like a derivative myth from the Rule “no nylon on nylon!”.
–dl*
But note that this requires or at least benefits from oval 'biners, and many
of them–at least for the vertical parts and for an attachment 'biner (else
an HMS one. Using the more commonly available D-shaped 'biners
will prove problematic, esp. with twin ropes.
The Munter needed but ONE 'biner, not five (if you connect to the CCB
with fabric you risk frictive abrasion on that).
Storrick cites the risk of twisting rope. Soles points out that for both
the Munter and Fig.8 devices twisting can be prevented by keeping
the ends of the abseil ropes downward & centered, not held off to the side.
–dl*
The glazing fact about the rope I have observed from to ropes running up against one another.
but I do know for a fact that the munther hitch causes greater damage to a rope.
th54
You’re on thin ice if any, here. Above you assert the surprising–given widely observable
discussions, etc.–“fact” that “The Munter hitch causes damage to the rope because
the rope rubs up against itself and causes glazing”, but now it seems that glazing,
at least, hasn’t been seen in this case, just conjectured!? As for the “greater damage to
the rope,” how do you know this? –greater than what?
–dl*
The Munther hitch causes greater damage to a rope rather than using a belay
or figure of eight device on the rope. This was told to me by a climber. I have
never really heard of the rule No Nylon On Nylon. What is that rule?
All these solutions to your problem add considerably to the complication. All will also wear on your rope, and I don’t think Munter particularly harsh in this respect. I have always known Munter as an ‘Italian Hitch’ (funny how little one actually speaks the name of knots in practice), and he seems to do his job very well indeed. I think I am right in saying that the HMS (of HMS carabiner) is an abbreviation for the German megasyllabic word for an Italian/Munter hitch (I daren’t hazard a go at spelling it from memory, but it means, I think, ‘half of a clove hitch’). Using an HMS carabiner for its rightful purpose gives room for the hitch across the broad end, and allows heat to dissapate more freely. If you are closer to the rock than your belay point, say, and it is above you, what better than the Italian? If you are abseiling, and you have a purpose-built device, use it. In an emergency, use what you can, and the simplicity of the Italian is likely to be an asset! K.I.S.S. as they say in ghastly places with charts and whiteboards.
Just looked up HMS: ‘Halbmastwurfsicherung, meaning ‘half mast hitch belay.’’ - marvellous thing, this Interweb!
The No-Nylon-on-Nylon rule is that one should tie rope/tape to metal,
not other rope/tape–in the case of interlocking eyes of loopknots.
But in fact rockclimbers are pretty universal in recommending that
one tie in to the fabric leg loops of a harness, and NOT use the
intermediary carabiner (for fear of loading the 'biner incorrectly
if it shifts). YMMV.
As for the Demi-Cabestan/Halbmast…/Italian/Munter H., here’s
an interesting aside from renown free-solo climber of yore, John
Bachar, regarding belaying with the Munter (HMS) against rock-gym
rules:
[John] Bachar wrote:I first learned how to use the HMS from Wolfgang Gullich and Kurt Albert in 1980 when I was in Germany.
I still use it today.
I’ve also had problems in Gyms passing their “belay test”. They ask what’s that? I say, “That’s what I used to climb
El Cap and Half Dome in a day”. They looked confused. “What’s an El Cap”, they ask me (I won’t mention the gym
in L.A. where this actually happened).Don’t worry Janine, the HMS isn’t the problem here…
cheers, jb
When nylon rubs against nylon, the friction melts the surface. Particles of melted nylon stick from one piece of nylon to the other. It is easy to saw through a nylon rope with another piece of nylon. This is why descending riings are sold to climbers.