Dan,
Thank you very much for your comment. I need time to read and understand what you said .
Here I would like to share how I found the two loops that I have posted.
Below are the two base use for the two loops. Thanks.
Abok #1033 Transformation base knot.
Greg, Thank for you comment, all the links you show, just no image shows up.
Can you please bring in some of your knot pictures will be much appreciate. thanks.
Sorry Alan, i incorrectly read the knot that you posted at reply#15 as a PET eyeknot, so i made the appropriate editing at my own reply#17.
I dind’t realize that you crossed over into non-PET, knots with figure eight and overhand nipping components stabilised with U-fold bight structures as pseudo bowlines.
It’s good to see you employing inverted forms, they are more pliable than those of conventional shape.
I think i know where Dan is directing you, because i have also walked this path, but i also would be interested to know the response of your particular designs at heavy stretching.
What i know for sure, is that they are more stable and in some cases as jam resistant as bowlines with simple nipping loops.
More details when i have some images.
Greg, Thanks for your concern.
For the first time that I have ever read, I actively disagree with Alan Lee. I do not like the Munter X. It is a complicated nipping loop to form PET and it deforms into a loopback like my Reversed Girth Hitch, but without any qualities that help it hold anything. It definitely will not seize, but neither will a slip knot.Hi Knotlikely, I heard what you said, but your voice was little too loud, it hurting my ear. I think nobody can read my mind, including you, without asking me why I have such a comment and right away you make the conclusion. Well, l am confused here, maybe my comment is totally wrong, if so I will delete it. l talk to myself, maybe you are as good as some of the famous knot experts here, like Dan, Xarax and Mark. So I have done some research and found you had made a great contribution to the forum. see this link; https://forum.igkt.net/index.php?topic=6817.msg44934#msg44934 Wow !!! Amazing l wasn't aware you had invented "The best climbing harness tie-in knot" out there. That is why I request free analysis of my two new knots above. I want to learn from you. So far, I haven't had any response from you. Here I call out again, if you feel like you don't want to do it, it is fine too. If I have time, I will do it myself. Thanks.
Now that’s the vim and vigor that I was looking for in a comment thread, plus some new nipping loops to play with! Yay! (sorry if my exclamation points were a little loud.)
I can see you’re not serious, but I’ll indulge you anyway. This will take a while. That’s a lot of pics in a short time when I’m short on time. You haven’t had a response in a while (a few days? really?) because life requires more from me than checking this board and apparently riling people up with the tiniest of differences of opinion. Sorry.
I’ll quote myself, I guess.
I believe that there may be a misunderstanding of the intended purposes for which each person is attempting to create a knot.
I tie my knots only for the purpose of having an all purpose knot for myself (and anyone else who may find it useful), usually for the purposes of tying into my harness, setting top ropes off trees and gear, tying up a boat and occasionally pulling a stump when I have a rope and chunk of carpet but didn’t bring the chains. I found it so useful since I haven’t been able to bring it to failure of its intended purposes, mostly stability, security, and being always releasable. I keep bringing it up because I don’t feel that anyone has actually tested it for its purposes and I see people looking for the qualities that it has.
As for your first knot,
Hi Knotlike,
Can you please analyse my loop below ?
Thanks.
I do love that nipping loop. I stumbled on it while trying, and failing, to find every modification of the 8 as a nipping loop around the time that I found my knot. I found it in my old “on bowlines” text document labeled as “z turn on tail exiting double z turned 8.” It is extremely secure for having no further moves to the tail. It locks down quite hard without any tail modification. I never tested that line of nipping loops further, immediately, because they were not PET, and later, because I had found my knot. It does not resist ring loading as well as I would like it to. The collar tightens quite easily and has nothing to restrict it from pulling tight. (the 90 degree turn of the standing end out of the switchback in my knot helps only slightly with this, the locking down into a rock does the rest) If the ongoing eye leg (held only by collar) manages to loosen first and reposition above the standing part “collar” formed by the SP side (non-nipping loop) part of the figure 8, a ring load can partially deform / roll the knot and release the tail quite easily. An End Bound move on the tail prevents this line position switching deformation and helps keep the knot (ongoing line, specifically) locked stiff once lightly loaded. The End Bound of the tail also locks the “twisted collar” “loopback” of the non-nipping loop end of the figure 8 to force a harder bend of the SP to prevent deformation of the collar on ring loading. (harder to roll)
This knot and its crossing lines is harder to untie, despite having the same “pull the collar, feed line, pull the switchback, feed line” release move as my knot. The switchback release does not directly release one of the two nipping loops.
If my gym ever forbade me from removing the figure 8 that everyone leaves on the climber’s side of the top rope, I’d be using this bowline form along with the End Bound move for the tail to add a third line through the nipping loops and to add additional security. (or probably just tying in with an 8. It is just top rope, after all, and unlikely to load hard enough to be harder to untie than this knot.)
As for Dan’s suggestion of reversing the standing and ongoing eye leg, (I think I read all his non-picture instructions correctly) I don’t really like how the doubled line under the collar forms the switchback around the ongoing eye leg. It does add a third line through the primary nipping loop but the ongoing eye leg (and the knot in general) stays incredibly loose when held by its own self in such a way. A slight wiggle after deloading sees the tail free to move, at least in my usual knot tying practice rope (Edelrid Boa Gym 9.8mm)
Alan, I’m not sure why you think I’m trying to read your mind. I understand why you could like the knot. I made no conclusions about your thoughts. I simply stated (for my own reasons… those stated above) that I didn’t like the knot that you said that you liked. That’s… not… I… I have no idea why that set you off.
As for “The best climbing harness tie-in knot” out there? Yep. I’ve tied every one I’ve ever seen put forth for the purpose hundreds of times. I’ve used them in the gym. I judge them by my personal tastes (I like the tail ending within the loop for lead climbing and I like them PET, for instance) and I’ve compared them to all the knots listed as suitable for the purpose in Mark Gommers Analysis papers. I’ve gone over it and over it. I can tie in and untie more quickly with mine. I can do it blindfolded without having to feel around or question it. I feel more secure with mine every time I feel any looseness with any of the others while climbing. I pull a thousand pounds with my knot and untie it with my hands. I flog it after hand tightening and it doesn’t move at all. I ring load it and the collar still feeds the standing line. It is the best that I have found. Do you have another contender that I can play with for a week or two? I’d love that.
My only purpose of joining this forum was to find the best harness tie-in knot. This is the internet. Cunningham’s Law applies. Mine is the best.
Nobody has shown me I’m wrong, so I’m starting to wonder.
Anyway, the next time you want me to shut up, it would be much simpler to just say “Hey, KnotLikely. Bug off.” or just block me so you don’t see my posts. You don’t really need to post a bunch of sarcastic nonsense.
I saved the pics. I’ll definitely be tying them, someday soon(ish). I won’t bother you any more (did my one comment of a single tiny disagreement between my opinion and yours really bother you that much?!?) It is long past time for bed. Don’t wait up for me to post again, this time. Thanks.
Hi Knotlikely, Please stop, don’t cry any more.
maybe a good opportunity to repeat, what makes a high quality knot…
regards
Congratulations Kost Greg you have created a beautiful knot. The structure is quite simple, easy to read and understand the nipping structure, not too bulky, not too complicated to tie, have not problem with soft rope. and is jam poof.
Remember, not all knots can handle stiff rope. Not all knot lovers use stiff rope to tie their knots. I like it. I learn a lot from it. Thanks again.
Andreas you have probably heard about the standard properties that establish a high quality knot, such as security, stability, tensile strength, ease of tying and untying, TIB ability, efficient rope usage, complexity, bulkyness, and so on.
It is feasible to obtain measurable values only for some of the above, such as tensile strength, jamming thresholds , and amount of rope required to form any knot.
Perhaps a general framework, with certain rules or certified tests needs to be configured in order to define precise security and stability levels of a so called inherently secure and stable knot.
Thanks Alan, i think you should also investigate the anti/bowlines (Eskimos) as well, they didn’t give me any hard time at loosening with my soft ropes.
It seems rather unlikely for any returning line slippage to arise out of these profiles, it’s completely restrained by SPart’s vertical nipping power.
The Lehman8 or a tucked Quick8 would use the awaiting,
de rigueur Fig.8 base. More mischievous could be transforming
that “8” into the BWLesque mid-flype form (with the two loops), and
simply "in-&-out"ing a collar as in The BWL; there are other options.
Tying in with F8 tracing begun at the S.Part end will give a decent
knot similar to what has been called the “Competition Knot” --an
Offset OH corresponding eye knot.
As for Dan's suggestion of reversing the standing [part] and [[u]out[/u]going]eye leg (I think I read all his non-picture instructions correctly), I don't really like how the doubled line under [u]the collar[/u] [nb : there are two : around the S.Part & around both eye legs (and Tail, whaTHEck)[ forms the switchback around the [out]going eye leg. It does add a third line through the primary nipping loop but the [out]going eye leg (and the knot in general) stays incredibly loose when held by its own self in such a way.Hmmm. It does NOT put a 3rd dia. in the nipping loop, really; but there IS a sort of impediment to S.Part bending before this which might add to the effect. (And I should note that so far Mark & I (et al.?) have only some conjecture that a 3rd dia. will ease the curve & improve (thus!) strength, but not data so supporting --and maybe SOME data running contrary : that of twin-eye Fig.8 knots NOT showing any gain in strength, though there the S.Part has FOUR diameters! Now, keep in mind that it's not diameters per se no matter what, but a shaping of the S.Part's bending, where likely ideally --again, my conjecture (and maybe a "YMMV" per cordage!)-- the curve is of a [i]"decreasing radius"[/i] sort, ever tighter after initial gradualness, bit-by-bit absorbing force in adjacent parts.)
So, 2 B Perspicuous :: Alan’s starting form as show
but with S.Part the upper-Left part,
and Returning Eye Leg coming in the simple way
parallel to Outgoing ELeg to collar the S.Part (with
a U-fold) and back out parallel-adjacent to the eye
legs, all thus collared together.
([b]Edelrid Boa Gym 9.8mm[/b])Thanks for this important bit of context !! How's this rope feel to you, compared with other climbing ropes? I have some (10.2, or .5? mm) Slim Gym, which was a surprise to me in seeming so non-gym-like flexible!? Previously got was some gym rope that betrayed its intended use by obvious stiff, beefy-mantle feel. --esp. one can find ease or difficulty in making 1dia (even 2dia) bends with firm ropes; ha, with some of the caving ones, just laugh out loud at almost ANY bending! :oP )
As for "The best climbing harness tie-in knot" out there? Yep. I've tied every one I've ever seen put forth for the purpose hundreds of times.(-: ambiguous English :: hundreds of times put forth, or tied?) And the EBDB** failed to win your use, why?
(**I’m wanting a better name, as the name “end-bound”
really should cover a LOT of variously shaped structures;
here, we have “Tail-looped” (?!) finish. (–though Tail-Looped
and “Tail-Loaded” share the “TL” initials : TLoaded of 1010
being the novelty I found in arbor tape, and fancy!)
–dl*
And which are typically put forwards in a simplistic assertion.
Most notably absent is a consideration of What-Material-So-Knotted.
... as security, stability, tensile strength, ease of tying and untying, TIB ability, efficient rope usage, complexity, bulkyness, and so on.Aspects that can differ w/material, or be irrelevant per use --what angler ever unties which of their used knots?! Or tying sans ends for a person tying to a closed ring?!
with certain rules or certified tests needs to be configured in order to define precise security and stability levels of a so-called "inherently secure" and stable knot.Notably, vice slow-pull strength tests, multiple-drop (Fall Factor 1, less?) tests for both effects of multiple loadings (and of these vs a knot's say non-jamming & so repeatedly *moving* (=friction?)) on peak impact force and maybe some hidden "ratcheting" loosening.
BTW, I too was much surprised that Alan got jammed
Eskimo BWLs !!? They didn’t l00k all so jammed, but
then he pushed in all the right places to try to loosen
them and … they didn’t budge !!
–dl*
Hi All,
I have a video called “Restore Vanish knots” on YouTube and give a satisfaction run,
so my work is complete. Thanks alanlee.
Hey Alan, i assume that you had posted them in the forum the good old times, but you can’t find them anymore.
Anyway, it’s a good opportunity for all to refresh these simple but basic concepts, in order to get a firm grasp of them before advancing to more complex stuff.
What is actually a girth/cow hitch?
In my view, it may be interpreted as a nipping turn/loop of reverse polarity, nested within a crossing knot, formed with an inward curving of the SP which is a direct, crossing knot collar, continuation.
It also worths mentioning, that it features dynamic chracteristics, meaning that it is feasible for the components to exchange roles by simply changing the SP directions within the nub, without having to induce an 180 degrees nub rotation.
I can’t think of a nipping structure with such a potential.
Example: if you do that to a loop, it simply falls apart to a simple line.
Hence, fourth crossing knots produce fourth girth/cow hitches, state 1 and state 2, and the mirrors formed as described previously.
On the contrary, the very next structures 3,4, are round turn crossing knots, formed by loops of same polarity.
The bowlines derived out of these formations, are round turn Samisen and round turn Karash, while both are collapsing to a round turn, double bowline, when threading WE through the SP turn first.
Thanks for reposting them, i think the bwls coming from the girth hitches, leave the others behind.
The [i]Lehman8 [/i]or a [i]tucked Quick8[/i] would use the awaiting, de rigueur [i]Fig.8[/i] base. More mischievous could be transforming that "8" into the BWLesque mid-flype form (with the two loops), and simply "in-&-out"ing a collar as in [i]The BWL[/i]
I hope I have the time to reference and understand that some time soon.
Hmmm. It does NOT put a 3rd dia. in the nipping loop, really; but there IS a sort of impediment to S.Part bending before this which might add to the effect. (And I should note that so far Mark & I (et al.?) have only some conjecture that a 3rd dia. will ease the curve & improve (thus!) strength, but not data so supporting --and maybe SOME data running contrary : that of twin-eye Fig.8 knots NOT showing any gain in strength, though there the S.Part has FOUR diameters! Now, keep in mind that it's not diameters per se no matter what, but a shaping of the S.Part's bending, where likely ideally --again, my conjecture (and maybe a "YMMV" per cordage!)-- the curve is of a [i]"decreasing radius"[/i] sort, ever tighter after initial gradualness, bit-by-bit absorbing force in adjacent parts.)
I always just assume, especially considering the total works of HowNot2 (Youtube), that a tighter bend radius (usually in common with any slight undressing, and therefore movement friction heat, would weaken a knots strength. I have not brought my knot to failure despite (“trying” isn’t quite the right word). I would assume that it would eventually break in the switchback of the girth hitch if the initial nipping around 3 was not the break point. I have tied a double End Bound move to add a 4th line through the nip when I questioned the possibility of the rope breaking.
Thanks for this important bit of context !! How's this rope feel to you, compared with other climbing ropes?
It is supple and it can bind easily. I use it over my other four discarded 12ft chunks of gym rope for its ability to seize into a knot that cannot be easily untied. Stiffer ropes bind harder, but they don’t bind as closely. The center of the gym boa is almost squishy under the force of many falls. It is closer to what I see being used at Devil’s Lake than what is usual in my gym. (softer and supple, with a slick sheath) There are a few knots that I have tested for tie-ins that have fared worse (for untying after many lead falls) in stiffer rope, but not many, and nothing that I have ever really considered as an option for my best knot. That said, I always test again in my stiffest ropes that I have once I think I may have a good knot for the purpose.
(-: ambiguous English :: hundreds of times put forth, or tied?)
Tied hundreds of times each, for each of the knots that I have ever seen suggested.
And the EBDB** failed to win your use, why?
I gave up on the EBDB after a couple of climbs with many falls that cinched it harder than a very well dressed fig. 8 follow through. My whole purpose was to find something that was 100% of the time easier to untie and was just as stable and secure. I was pumped and I had to ask for help to untie.
(**I'm wanting a better name, as the name "end-bound" really should cover a LOT of variously shaped structures; here, we have "Tail-looped" (?!) finish. (--though Tail-Looped and "Tail-Loaded" share the "TL" initials : TLoaded of 1010 being the novelty I found in arbor tape, and fancy!)
I’ve thought a bit about this and decided to just stay with the language given in what I had read, mostly here. The term “End Bound” does the movement of the tail justice, though. You take the bitter end and you bind it through the nipping loop(s). The nature of knots, though… there will always be ambiguity with the actual movement. It can be made from “above” (just bind the loops) or from below (bind the ongoing eye leg, as well)… or it can be made with many other movements, depending on the almost infinitely varied structures.
Greg…
* Girth hitches vs round turn crossing knots.JPG
I tie my knot with your 4th (far right) form of the girth hitch, with the collar on the left side and the eye on the right and the top line being the standing line. The other three form into a knot that is far harder to untie. There is no built in release mechanism and the primary nipping loop does not grab the secondary nip for increased locking-down-tight stability.
I also think of the ability of a random climber to mess up the tying through inexperience or distraction. It seems to be extremely hard to tie a knot that will fail when starting with a girth hitch in any of the four forms. You may need a knife, but I can’t find a move or two where you won’t still be alive to attempt to untie it. Even the worst possibility of forming only a single End Bound move results in a collar being created on the returning eye leg and the tail forming a couple of wraps that are locked by the “nipping collar.” Not ideal, but still a pretty secure form for a mistake that might see you dead on a double bowline. The Girth Hitch adds a backup collar form. I love it for that.
Knotlikely, i guess there has been a misunderstanding/misreading because the fourth image structure, (screenshot taken from Alan Lee’s video) is not a girth hitch, but a round turn crossing knot, as i have described it in my previous reply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWVR1wPpqN8&t=380s
The derived bwl knot, is not girth hitched based, but a round turn Karash bowline.
However you could still finish it with an end bound turn, but i’m not sure about the benefits compared to Dan’s EBDB.
I would prefer an ampersand/fontus lock in this case.
When I make a video, I always try to make it user-friendly. I have my videos if it makes sense to you or not ? All of the St part is on the right ,all incoming eye legs start from the right for the first knot and the next knot is from the left. The first knot is upright, the next knot upside down.
Video below show 1 & 2 are Grith hitched based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iafjbVIAKZI&t=17s&ab_channel=alanleeknots
Thanks alanlee.
!! ? Really! The method I use to untie the knot (not having
loaded it all so hard as you must have) is to firstly draw some
of the S.Part through the collar --this’ll be needed after …-- ;
then try to prise out some S.Part from the End-Binding loop
by pulling the Tail and Returning Eye leg (the 2 parts within
the very tight nipping loop) apart. The nipping loop might
be very tight around the End-Binder, but not so much vice versa,
so I’d expect one to get enough S.Part movement so to then
work the knot looser & untied.
The term "End Bound" does the movement of the tail justice, though. You take the bitter end and [u]you bind [b][i]it [/i][/b][/u]through the nipping loop(s).The bitter end is over by the bitts, not here. And the "binding" is done by the Tail ("End") of the S.Part's nipping loop, not the other way 'round --though, yes, they loop/bind each other; but the S.Part is there per basic knot needs, and then we're looking for security measures to keep it well behaved! So, ...
there will always be ambiguity with the actual movement. ... or it can be made with many other movements, depending on the almost infinitely varied structures.Yeah, many ways to employ the "End" (Tail). (The basic BWL's RELeg<->Tail collars the S.Part with a U-fold; but one might get similar effect with a loop (and the Myrtle BWL; or inserting from opposite side ("backside" BWL) a "Bollard Loop"/"Swedish BWL" (as some named it) --which not only contains the S.Part but gives some slack-security.
Btw, one might Return the Eye Leg into the “End-bound”
structure and finish w/a U-fold; this, one will suspect,
could lead to a tighter loop-through-loop situation;
but note that the Sheepshank has zilch to maintain
its U-folds put through a nipping loop, and seems to
manage ok with that.
–dl*
Hi All. I have two videos loop 002 and loop 003 on YouTube. Hope you like it.
alanlee.