Desert Island Knots

General Discussion
1

I don’t want to hijack the ‘Essential knots’ thread with the concept of a ‘minimal knot group’, so here is a little bit of light entertainment to challenge the grey matter now the nights are pulling in (well they are this end of the world).

You are going to be marooned on a desert island for some period of time. You will be able to take any amount of rope and cord, but while on the island you will only be able to use the three knots you chose before the trip. What knots would you take and why?

Naturally, there are rules:

The knot you choose includes all variants of it, all possible configurations of it with itself and with either/any of the two other knots you chose, no matter if those configurations/combinations are also known by another knot name. So, for example, if you chose the bowline, then the sheetbend, the becket, the double bowline, the double loop bowline etc. are all available to you because they are all using the same basic knot.

BUT if you have not elected to use a knot then you MUST NOT use it - everything must be done using just the three knot forms you choose to use on the island.

Remember, your knots will need to cover all your island activities – building and maintaining your home, building and rigging your boat, your fishing gear, your hunting tools, weapons and restraints and last but by no means least, your personal protection.

What three basic knot structures would you elect to use, and why have you chosen them i.e. how would you use them.

2

You will already know from my post in Essential Knots, that my first choice would be the Strangle - it is the overhand knot with one or more wraps.

I choose it because it is amazingly simple to tie yet it is strong, stable, and in multiple wrap forms it resists falling open. It can be used to hold another rope, it can perform well as a bend both in the Fishermans knot form for different thickness lines and rethreaded in same thickness line. It can form a strong and very reliable loop when tied rethreaded and it can be used as a self tightening snare loop for hunting.

Rethreaded Strangle loop

http://knotbox1.pbwiki.com/f/Rethreaded%20Strangle%20loop%20sml.jpg

I think I will be very happy with the strangle as one of my knots.

The second knot I would choose is hardly a knot, yet is perhaps more important to the use of rope and cord than any of the normally recognised ‘knots’.
My second choice is the round turn(s) with or without the tuck. The round turn allows the rope to be held without loosing any strength and through the exponential friction law, six turns allows virtually any load to be fed out using hand control alone. However, I have to admit that another reason for choosing the round turns is that it then gives me access to the KC Hitch which is just perfect for hauling.

As for my third knot – well, I think I will give that last choice a bit more thought. My first two knots can tackle just about any job, so my last choice is going to have to be able to cope with the oddment jobs — hmmmm.

3

An interesting assortment and I would hope that one could indeed use any combination or number of repeats of one, two or all three knots that one chose to use. At first I was going to pick the bight, the loop and the wrap but, as the bight would not hold on its own, and a wrap is simply that, (a wrap is hardly a knot) and I would miss out on the overhand, I would therefore choose to use the eye splice, the loop (or half hitch as above) and the overhand knot. With these three knots and knotting structures I could make any practical and useful knot that would serve the purposes mentioned. Now I suppose you’ll want me to name the knots I could make? How about:

Becket bend (eye splice plus half hitch)
Sheet bend (eye splice plus half hitch)
Clove Hitch (two half hitches)
Cleat hitch (okay, it’s a clove hitch but used differently)
Constrictor Knot (two half hitches and an additional tuck for the overhand)
Boa (overhand plus a turn)
Bowline (weak and unnecessary if I have the other structures)
Lashings - diagonal and square (eye splice, followed by turns, followed by frapping turns, followed by a half hitch round the frappings)
Round Turn + Two half hitches (says it all)
Overhand knot (aka itself)
Overhand loop (doubled line overhand knot)
Slipped noose (overhand with a bight pulled through or call it a half half hitch)
Double overhand (overhand with an extra turn)
Overhand bend (follow-through an overhand with another against the first)
Fisherman’s bend (round turn with half hitch in the turn and half hitch outside the turn)
Fishermans knot (overhand knot around each opposite SPart)
Square Knot or Reef knot (overhand + overhand)
Figure eight (half hitch over its own SPart)
Double Harness bend (twisted half hitch around each SPart)
Carrick bend (interlocking half hitches around the opposing SPart)
Strangle Loop (overhand with one or two more turns)
etc., etc., etc. ;D

You will fairly soon see that many knots may be broken down into the two basic structures of a bight & a loop with a half hitch (which is just a loop with the ends going opposite each other) just being an extension of the latter. Add to those two the tuck of the overhand and you will have the basis of most knots. By adding the eye splice I have opened up all sorts of splices and other woven knots. Some knots, however, cannot be broken down into these three structures or combinations - care to hazard a guess at which ones? ::slight_smile:

SR

4

Is that the type of lashing I was trying to find out the specifics for in the other thread I started?
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=950.0

If so can you explain how to do the tuck? Is it similar to common whipping?

thanks

As far as the island;

adjustable grip hitch (loop)
constrictor knot (hitch and binding)
double sheet bend (bend)

5

Is levity allowed on this forum? I do hope so …

Firstly, a handcuff knot.
That leaves me two knots with which to construct a cat o’ nine tails.

Why?

Assuming I’m the only man on the island, along with numerous beautiful dusky maidens (like in the fantasy films), I’m going to need something to maintain discipline.

As for building, fishing, hunting etc., the girls will be taking care of those chores.

Phil

6

Hi Lindsey,

I applaud your ingenuity, but I think you are missing the goal here a little bit i.e. ‘How to do more with less’ - still, that is what you have done, isn’t it !!

Meanwhile, everyone is working out how to build a boat to get over to Phil’s island.

Derek

7

I suppose Derek, in doing his “most jobs” with the Strangle & turns qua KC hitch, is
going to tie a Strangle LK to secure the KC structure?

This allowance of variations of things and then supposed use of components to make
other things is getting out of hand–the idea that given A, B, & C which are components
of most knots that one can derive that multitude from them really stretches the mind,
and cheats the question, IMO.

By which you mean that all of your given cordage would have eyes in one (both?) end(s)?
Or that you’d choose a particular eye splice for, e.g., laid rope and put them in yourself as
needed (and of course only in laid rope)?

Becket bend (eye splice plus half hitch) Sheet bend (eye splice plus half hitch)
To my eye here, identical, although one could bias the eye to [i]simulate[/i] a Sheet bend in it (i.e., have one side slack).
Clove Hitch (two half hitches)
Hmmm, not so obviously, really, unless tying at an angle.
Cleat hitch (okay, it's a clove hitch but used differently)
Hmmm, there can be that look, but note how one casts only one HH, which goes to my point above about the Clove & 2HH issue--kind of a matter of perspective. Or is it that one sees the 1st HH tied in reverse? And for a case of both tied [i]forwards[/i], see the Reverse Groundline/Picketline H..
Constrictor Knot (two half hitches and an additional tuck for the overhand) Boa (overhand plus a turn)
In the C., one has to have the wit to get that from components. Re B., I don't see it as at all so simple as put: in the usually given formation, there are just turns & a twist; but to cast it as coming from an Oh. and just a turn is quite an understatement. (Hailed as a novelty in km55:19 way back when, the knot is a slight variation on #1201--and less effective at tightening.)
Bowline (weak and unnecessary if I have the other structures)
Do you mean that you could create this via the eye & HH tied in reverse, of by casting the "back-flip" (my term) after putting the HH around the eye? But by neither method does one bring a line to be tied to a pole, say, and make the LK (you'd need thus to use the Clove or Clove to SPart.
Slipped noose (overhand with a bight pulled through or call it a half half hitch)
Not sure what is intended here. Many uses of "Slip Knot" mean the noose, some the stopper; you sound like you want a slipped noose? And how does one get a (quarter :-) hitch thus?
Double overhand (overhand with an extra turn)
I don't see this following from Oh. & HH (& eye). Rather, here's where your suggested but dropped use of "wrap" would come in; but absent that, how does one get to Dbl.Oh?
Overhand bend (follow-through an overhand with another against the first) Fisherman's bend (round turn with half hitch in the turn and half hitch outside the turn)
Seems many by Oh bend mean Offset Ring Bend, Thumb bend say. Again, here one has the form AND needs the wit to perform the [trace]. With the ORB, one needs the adventurousness to try the simple knot in doubled lines; or to have derived this from the form in doubled [i]line[/i], i.e., seeing the bend in the loopknot.
Square Knot or Reef knot (overhand + overhand)
Somehow I don't make the connection between Oh. & Reef ... .
Figure eight (half hitch over its own SPart) Double Harness bend (twisted half hitch around each SPart)
Whoa, now: one makes the u-turn to address the SPart for the 8, okay, but ... a HH ? And "twisted HH"? I think that that's stretching the relationship beyond the pale. (Note that [u][i]RIgger's Apprentice[/u] has DHB as the, [i]new[/i], "Benson bend"!)
Carrick bend (interlocking half hitches around the opposing SPart)
Again, this takes a lot of [i]added value[/i] to be derived from a HH. And the finished knot (capsized lattice form, or crossing-knot form) doesn't show it.

As Derek says, the build-from-components plan taken in extreme (or beyond, as
I think some cases here go), kinda cheats the game.
And I think that the assumed provision of cordage also takes a little away,
or might be part of the trick in asking for just some limited choice of what.
Otherwise, if one must choose knots for unknown cordage (or for expected
rendering of nature’s offerings into cordage), the selection will go a different
direction.

–dl*

8

My dear Dan,

What really stretches MY mind is that a notion should ever be taken so seriously of only having three knots with which to work on a desert island! Whether or not Dan you agree that this stretches the imagination, it really beggars the question - why should there only be three knots (and who is checking this anyway) and why are my three less acceptable than yours - what were yours, anyway? Yes, you may disagree with the knot combinations, but that avoids whether or not this really represents the basis of knotting - what structures would it take to form any knot anywhere? Maybe I needed more than three knots, but you have to admit that those three do make for a fine set of possible combinations don’t they? Yes, I could have said a three-strand splice or perhaps a four-strand splice, but what would then have been said by you of any possible use of a four-strand splice when only three-strand line was available and what would you have made of Dereks’ use of a constrictor knot in kevlar say or perhaps trying to tie a knot under water? Let us not unnecessarily complicate matters by raising artificial rules, but rather revel in the wit of the kind that Phil has engendered. It is a most unnecessary complication to examine the what-if of only having a certain kind of line or a certain kind of structure available. brought about by introducing artificial rules that have no purpose other than a subterfuge to try to drive one towards stating what were perhaps ideas in the mind of the original questioner. My purpose in stating the possible combinations was to point out the ideation of having such an artifice as only three knots. Perhaps a differently worded question could provide a different approach that would more fit within your own parameters, as my own choices do not appear to do so? How would you have worded the question Dan to come up with whatever it is you perceive the “rules” are?

All knots are components of line and that line merely twisted, rolled, woven or turned one way or another. If the questioner (Derek in this case, but it could be anybody) asks the question and then adds rules to it, who am I to disagree with the rules and who then should take me to task (“cheats the question”) for not staying within the perceived rules? Certainly Derek thought I stayed within the rules. On the face of it there should be nothing wrong with following the stated rules - maybe there could be more rules to stop my pointing out the obvious - that as long as you make up arbitrary rules, there will be those who seek to circumvent them, like you seem to think I did ( - or rather used the rules to provide an answer that perhaps someone else had thought to use but did not come up with?). Rather, if you feel it could be improved by asking the question a little more simply and perhaps even without rules - then I await your usual erudition! ???

SR

9

Well, the giants are busy beating their pens into swords and the grinding sparks will make a mighty show for the rest of us to enjoy.

But while those battles rage, I hope the thunder will not put off the rest of us into giving a moments thought into what knots you would be prepared to restrict yourself to in this hypothetical exercise. Sadly, it has to be hypothetical because we cannot run to the budget for the location, filming crew and travel. We will have to make do with fertile imaginations (very much so in Phil’s case) in deciding which knots would serve us best for this challenge.

Naturally, apart from a bit of fun, there is another reason behind posting this challenge. If I am going to teach my grandchildren three knots, then I will want to be able to make them extremely versatile. I wear a Leatherman on my belt and the challenge it poses is how to use it to perform most of the tasks I come across from day to day. I believe the same should be the case for knots. If I can teach just three really really useful knots, then I can be fairly sure they will be used time and time again, perhaps bringing their users eventually into wondering what other knots might deliver, but if nothing else I would hope to make cord usage a part of their lives. I can’t help but feel that the present trend of teaching folks loads of knots is the wrong way to put cord usage into their lives - they will forget them, they will mix up the usage, they will worry that they are using the ‘Right’ knot - they will be put off and will use tape and velcro. Just because we know a lot of knots does not mean that you actually NEED a lot of knots (a professional decorator might have a dozen brushes, but a DIYer will just use two).

The challenge then is to identify a basic minimum set of knots that can accomplish just about everything you might need of a cord or string. This challenge limits you to just three.

So please join in and think about what you would use if you restricted yourself to a most usable set of three and then let us know what knots and why while you enjoy the fireworks. We teach our kids the three R’s so what might be the three K’s they need to go with them??

Derek

Derek

10

Hi Guys and Gals.

I won’t pretend to be anything other than a novice when it comes to practical knots, and I confess to getting lost when following some of the technical discussions in this thread. However, I recall once learning the “highwayman’s hitch” (aka “Lorry Driver’s hitch”?) and thinking what a splendid knot it was.

I still see it used ocassionally on HGV’s I pass on the motorway (or when they pass me if I’m driving my mobile home). I particularly like the way it uses the “pulley” principle to “tighten things up” - might be handy for the girls on my desert island to hold down the canvas roof they erect over my hut?

I THINK I’ve named the knot correctly, if not I suppose I’m gonna have to produce another video?!?!?

Phil

11

I won’t say that this name isn’t somewhere associated with the any of the likely
structures you are thinking about, but it is definitely (also) used to denote one
dubious quick-release, slip-free hitch–a pull on the end spilling the knot
entirely free of the tied-to object. It is a bad knot though popularly promulgated,
as in various materials it can collapse under load, esp. around relatively large
objects; there is a simple variation that is much more stable, and various other
similar knots that lack the vulnerability to failure.

I might suggest that a trucker’s hitch is a structure that players of this game can
assume to be got by wit and not counted as part of the knot set–provided of
course that their set has a suitable knot to serve as a sheave (e.g. Oh. LK).

–dl*