I would like everyones opinion on wich is better in terms strength, ease of tying, ease of untying, ect.
I am trying to find a strong and practical alternative to the popular Bowline. For some reason, and I don’t realy know why, I just don’t like the Bowline. The Double Dragon and Perfection loop, so far, are the two best alternatives I have found.
Have you tried a loop based on the Zeppelin/Rosendahl Bend - less likely to jam perhaps?
try figure of nine or figure of ten- fig 9 is less bulky, I use it in rigging climbs etc in slings cos it’s much easier to untie after loading than a figure 8. It’s supposed to be stronger as well.
Cheers
Wow, I forgot about that one. Still, I think I will limit my choices between the DD or perfection.
I want a loop that can be tied around an object if needed. Figure 9 can’t be. Figure 8 can be very hard to untie after a heavy load.
The Farmer’s Loop can be tied as an end of line loop, and, like the Bowline can be put around an object prior to the knot’s tying.
I would like to stick to my original choices. More choices makes it more confusing.
I’m going to stick with DD or Perfecton. I’m just looking for some real world comparison and opinions between the two.
The Perfection loop jams. I would avoid it. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the so-called Double Dragon Loop does not have good method of tying around or through an object before closing, as a good end loop should. I would avoid it, too.
I would only consider the strength of a knot in rope as a tie-breaker. If two knots have identical qualities in every other way (easy of tying/remembering, jam-resistance, security, etc.) only then would I look to which one is stronger to make a decision on which to use. Strength of a knot in rope should be largely irrelevant if properly-sized rope is used.
I am extremely skeptical of this claim. How would you tie a Farmer’s Loop through a hole in a post, for example? I cannot imagine it would be anything but hopelessly difficult.
I have no problem tying the DD around an object or through a hole. It’s actually very easy. Easier than the perfection for sure.
Then you must have found some secret new way. ;D The only attempt at diagramming such a method that I’ve seen was a mess that had far too many ways to make a mistake.
I will try to get some pictures or a video soon.
Hi Roo,
Just feed the rope through the hole before you begin tying the knot. Try tying the Farmer’s Loop any way you like and put your foot in the Eye Loop. Now back the bitter end of the rope out of the knot. You’re now left with a Loop and the Working End of the rope. It should be “hopelessly” obvious by now how easy it is to tie this knot, through a hole in, or, around a post. 
Bearing in mind the name of the knot, I would assume it to have several applications on the farm.
Pictures or drawings would further the discussion. Video might be a bit offputting for a segment of readers due to speed and plug-in issues.
Alpineer,
As you may know, the Farmer’s Loop can assume a number of forms depending on how forces are applied to it as it is drawn up. I think I may have found a form that allows a method of end-tying that borders on memorable for knot enthusiasts. This must be what you have in mind.
To use bowline imagery, the rabbit goes under the hole toward the tree, around the tree, and then goes into the hole, under its own path, and back out of the hole. Does this sound familiar, or am I chasing the wrong form?
The form I originally tried made me think you were being quite optimistic about people’s spatial memorization abilities. Anyway, I hope this isn’t too much of a diversion from the original focus of the thread.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9554/dscn1397.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9426/dscn1398.jpg
[/size]
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6986/dscn1401.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3926/dscn1402.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/5900/dscn1403.jpg
That’s it Roo,
An excellent way of describing it too.
Mike,
You’re quick with the camera! I’m not going to tell you what you can and cannot remember long term. One thing I will note is how knots that actually get used by the public are either essentially simple (e.g. overhand knot/loop, pile hitch, timber hitch), made up of memorable elements (e.g. reef knot & its variants), or they have some gimmick to force correct decisions in the under and over sequence (e.g. one hand twist of the bowline). That is something that is currently lacking in the Double-Dragon-as-an-end-loop methods.
A quick note of some places to go wrong:
Diagram 2: Which way for the coil?
Diagram 3: Which side to insert end?
Diagram 5: Over or under first obstacle? Then there a number of tucking options.
I’m not going to remember that after the diagram is taken away and a few months elapse, even if I practice. And I’m used to knotting. Perhaps some improvements could be made.
You’ve told us nothing about your intended application (and nOne’s asked).
Your photos show BWII, which could be for TR anchoring or caving, or … ?
What do you have in mind?
It’s also hard to work with “some reason, … don’t know why” as a point of
departure in seeking alternatives. And yet you seem to know enough to be
quick to exclude any but the two you ask about! --for some reason.
As Roo states, the Perfection/Angler’s loop (#1017) will be prone to jamming
in rope. (To my surprise, I found one discarded Commercial-Fishing cordage
knotted w/these qua mid-line eyeknots.) The jamming will stand in contrast
to the Dlb.Dragon, and that might point to a chafing issue re the DD–since
the S.Part can move back & forth with cyclical loading. The DD looks good,
to my eye, for traditional (slow-pull) strength aspects. (On a 2nd look, maybe
the chafe vulnerability’s not so bad.)
I think you have your choice in mind. I know of no testing on either of these
knots; and of the testings I do know about, I would mostly have more questions
than confidence in their results–seldom, if ever, is enough detail given to
enable someone to repeat the testing. I don’t find your tying method all so
problematic, once you know what you’re after; the initial two stages can come
error-free (vis-a-vis Roo’s “which way?” re apparent insertion of end into loop)
by seeing the tying as slapping the end into the S.Part and making the impact
cast the loop in it; it’s an easy way to begin anti-bowlines (it is the defining
aspect of the “anti-”–opposite the bowline’s direction).
Elsewhere in this forum among recent threads are some regarding some
novel extensions to the bowline; you should review these for useful
information. (We are now a month plus waiting for the next installment
of test data from Agent_Smith–starving for it!)
You claimed that the Fig.9 couldn’t, though the Fig.8 could, be tied around
an object: that’s not true–EVERY eyeknot can be (though for some it might
be a difficult operation). I could even suggest a symmetric Fig.9 structure for
your solution, or an alternative Fig.8: see the white rope’s eyeknot at this
URLink (I’ll not test now whether the “click on image” coding works–it has
and has not in a couple other places–; click the URL for that) :
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVofWer.jpg
www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVofWer
–dl*
Roo, I have no problem remembering this method, and I can tie, dress, and set in less than 20 seconds every time. That is actually my preferred method, even when it’s not going around or through an object.
You've told us nothing about your intended application (and nOne's asked). Your photos show BWII, which could be for TR anchoring or caving, or ... ? What do you have in mind? It's also hard to work with "some reason, ... don't know why" as a point of departure in seeking alternatives. And yet you seem to know enough to be quick to exclude any but the two you ask about! --for some reason.
Dan, I just want a strong “end of line” loop for everyday use, work and home. I also want it to look good. The bowline is a very ugly knot, IMO. I want a loop where both legs of the loop imerge from the middle, not one from the middle and one from the side, as the bowline does. I chose to exclude other choices because my OCD wont allow me to have too many things to ponder, it drives me crazy. I guess you are correct in saying I have already made up my mind, I guess I just wanted to hear others opinions.