Figure eight Zeppelin like bend/tube eight bend/Z8

[kost_greg]

I had tied this bend long before, but sadly it didn’t get my attention then, i overlooked it as a typical entangled figure eight bend.

This time, i arrived at it through another route, and i decided to analyze it more extensively, focusing on its remarkable Zeppelin mechanism.

I believe this is a genuine zeppelin knot, with figure eights, thus a jam proof knot right up to its MBS yeild point.

Verily, after an intensive inspection of the core, the first figure eight nipping turns of each link, beyond the nipping of their own tails, [u]they firmly restrain the other link’s tail[/u], (zeppelin property), hence preventing the figure eight from irreversible blocking.

My guess is, that the Zeppelin mechanism , might be implemented with other basic knotting schemes too, like figure eights or shaped eights.

Has anyone tied/examined/tested anything close to this bend structure before? I was not able to induce any jamming.

Zeffelin = Zeppelin figure eight

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[siriuso]

Hi tsik_lestat

I found my Tube Eight Bend (issued on 24th June, 2020 at my folder “My New Bends”) is the same as the bend you mentioned here. Several bends started with the same loops forms are also included (see TTCrossBase(2) in “Bends Classed…”

I did not realize you have found it before as you said.

yChan

[kost_greg]

Bravo, Siriuso, i have no doubt about your creativity and your inventiveness, but i am curius as to how you have not mentioned this remarkable mechanism independently so far. I do not remember when i tied it for the first time, but does it really matter? It is you who accredits it as your invention with the moniker of tube eight bend , until proven otherwise of course.

If i hadn’t made a reference, i believe it would had been lost in translation :). Maybe you should consider presenting your finest products one by one?

Note, that we can tuck the working ends under their SPs to generate links of shaped eight forms, with the tails as hinges, in a perpendicular orientation to the loading axis, getting a bit more closer to the Zeppelin geometry.

You might also try to load the bend from the tail sides in reverse, for a bend structure with entagled figure eights again in my favourite geometry, (crossing knot + nipping turn), which was the first instance that i tied this time!

If you have done that already, you may attach the photos of the structures i mentioned previously, i have not photographed them yet.

Now i have to examine all the bends you mentioned, for similar mechanisms ;).

Fine work!!!

[siriuso]

Hi tsik_lestat

Beside the bends from the above related chart, I got one on 19th Feb 2021 and named it Onion Bend. This bend will be included in my coming folder. Photos attached are the front and back of the Onion Bend.

Happy Knotting
yChan

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[Dan_Lehman]

@tsik_lestat post:1

I had tied this bend long before, but sadly it didn’t get my attention then,
i overlooked it as a typical entangled figure eight bend.

This time, i arrived at it through another route,

It’s neat to see sometimes how one can get to
some one place by different routes! (One plus
to forgetfulness?)

I believe this is a genuine zeppelin knot, with figure eights, thus a jam proof knot right up to its MBS yeild point.

I think that the "thus..." is a non sequitur. But this IS a neat knot (and gives ideas for revision, here & there, to boot) !!!

Has anyone tied/examined/tested anything close to this bend structure before? I was not able to induce any jamming.

Sort of :: I've interlocked Fig.8s so to be contrary to the usual [i]tracing[/i] of them, among some other forays into 8s. And w/your knot, e.g., my first fiddling tucked the tails to exit out beside the SParts; then, it occurs to one to load the tails qua SParts and get more of a Fig.8-acting knot.

Thanks!
–dl*

[roo]

@tsik_lestat post:1

I had tied this bend long before, but sadly it didn’t get my attention then, i overlooked it as a typical entangled figure eight bend.

This time, i arrived at it through another route, and i decided to analyze it more extensively, focusing on its remarkable Zeppelin mechanism.

I believe this is a genuine zeppelin knot, with figure eights, thus a jam proof knot right up to its MBS yeild point.

Verily, after an intensive inspection of the core, the first figure eight nipping turns of each link, beyond the nipping of their own tails, [u]they firmly restrain the other link’s tail[/u], (zeppelin property), hence preventing the figure eight from irreversible blocking.

My guess is, that the Zeppelin mechanism , might be implemented with other basic knotting schemes too, like figure eights or shaped eights.

Has anyone tied/examined/tested anything close to this bend structure before? I was not able to induce any jamming.

Zeffelin = Zeppelin figure eight

Well, I made a sketch in my folder of a Zeppelinesque Figure Eight Bend dating to the beginning of 2009, but I couldn’t really find justification for it. I’ll attach the sketch here.

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[kost_greg]

@ Dan_Lehman

And w/your knot, e.g., my first fiddling tucked the tails to exit out beside the SParts;

Thank you for your observations, i’ve tried your suggested structure, indeed it looks very neat, it does not affect the overall functionality, but i am calling to mind that the U collar segment of both figure eight links (the collar), has no nipping action at all, the tails are inactive, they have been restrained at the previous level from the Sparts.

it occurs to one to load the tails qua SParts and get more of a Fig.8-acting knot.

That’s true you get more of a fig-8 acting knot, but why would i do that instead of loading the tails qua Sparts at the previous configuration (tails out of the collar)? A bit more complex, but very pliable structure with crossing knots.

@roo

Thanks for the sketch, i have no reason to question your claim of originality, but i am curius as to how did you manage to keep it in obscurity for 12,5 years running?

I strongly recommend you gentlemen to post your creations, we just can’t allow such remarkable mechanisms to lie fallow for so long.

The Z8 moniker sounds legitimate, i’m ok with it, if you are.

@Siriuso

You know my opinion, the fact that Mr.roo tied it before you, does not nullify your creativity or your efforts.

I shall try to be more careful with your creations, but you have to highlight them somehow, because they run the risk of remaining in the shadows, in your big data files.

I examined your symmetrical Onion bend and it’s not bad at all. There are no closed form components, but i prefer a more open form geometry (more readable for me). No images for the moment, but soon to show you what i mean.

For the record, the Z8 bend has already taken its place in my top five bend list.

I mean, it can’t dethrone the king of bends, the great Zeppelin, but IMO, it can very easily sit right next to it :).

Of course, it’s a dynamic list.

[roo]

@tsik_lestat post:7

@roo

Thanks for the sketch, i have no reason to question your claim of originality, but i am curius as to how did you manage to keep it in obscurity for 12,5 years running?

I strongly recommend you gentlemen to post your creations, we just can’t allow such remarkable mechanisms to lie fallow for so long.

The Z8 moniker sounds legitimate, i’m ok with it, if you are.

For the record, the Z8 bend has already taken its place in my top five bend list.

I mean, it can’t dethrone the king of bends, the great Zeppelin, but IMO, it can very easily sit right next to it :).

Of course, it’s a dynamic list.

While I couldn’t find a practical justification for the bend, I considered putting it on the decorative board, but I don’t think I ever got around to it because I didn’t think it was quite decorative enough, either. By the way, the “z8” I named the sketch was just a quick placeholder. I wasn’t intending to bestow a real name, and I don’t have any preference on the matter. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if it’s been recorded before 2009.

I am curious as to what circumstance might draw you to use the bend over a regular Zeppelin or Double Zeppelin bend.

[kost_greg]

@roo post:8

I am curious as to what circumstance might draw you to use the bend over a regular Zeppelin or Double Zeppelin bend.

I don’t need any particular circumstance to test/ use the bend, and i didn’t claim that it outclasses over the Zeppelin bend, but i believe it can be used in applications where heavy loading is expected. It’s about having options.

Well, i pulled my truck with the Z8, which is around 1800 kg. It certainly wasn’t an equal force i exerted, but with a rather low MBS rope, it was quite enough to show me that this is a jam proof knot, it took me 3 secs to untie it.

To be honest, i wouldn’t expect an eight -like bend to open so easily, but it did, so it surely does not appear to be very “decorative” to me.

I did the same thing for the bad brother. Why?

1. Because it has been characterised as Zeppelin like.

2. It has a transformational relation with the Z8. if one tucks Z8’s tails under their SPs, he gets the attached ZS8. Contorting the nub of ZS8 leads to bad brother.

Anyway, it didn’t jam, but it took me five plus minutes to untie it with my hands only. The ZS8 did much better, but the load induced some core distortion.

After that, you realize that it bumped up in my ranking bend list :).

[siriuso]

Hi tsik_lestat

Your ZS8 Bend is the same as my Zep Twist Bend. It has been included in “My New Bends” in 1st July 2020. Did you discover it at a earlier time?

yChan

[eric22]

Hi tsik_lestat
I just curious, I see the title, not sure is appropriate, we can call " Zeppelin figure eight like bend "
Zeppelin bend have both sides of the nipping loop nipping on both tails.
Here I have a picture may be these bend is more appropriate to call " Zeppelin figure 8, 9, like bend "
I am not here to claim anything, seem like I have seen Xarax tie it before If not Chan or other have tied
it before. 謝謝 alanleeknots

[kost_greg]

@siriuso post:10

Hi tsik_lestat

Your ZS8 Bend is the same as my Zep Twist Bend. It has been included in “My New Bends” in 1st July 2020. Did you discover it at a earlier time?

yChan

Siriuso, i suspected that you had tied it, that’s why i prompted you to post it in the first place. Do not change anything, i see that it is the last but not least bend in your files. Keep up the good, systematic work.

@alanleeknots post:11

Hi tsik_lestat
I just curious, I see the title, not sure is appropriate, we can call " Zeppelin figure eight like bend "
Zeppelin bend have both sides of the nipping loop nipping on both tails.
Here I have a picture may be these bend is more appropriate to call " Zeppelin figure 8, 9, like bend "
I am not here to claim anything, seem like I have seen Xarax tie it before If not Chan or other have tied
it before. 謝謝 alanleeknots

I mostly agree with you Alan, it geometrically diverges from a conventional Zeppelin structure, where the tail parts are nipped by both links, operating collaboratively as stabilization hinges in a perpendicular orientation to the axis of shear forces.

While i had no intention to chisel some prestige out of the genuine Zeppelin knot, i did sense some Zeppelinesque function in bend’s core, the way in which the two links nest inside each other, just before their continuations are driven to the figure eight nipping loops respectively.

Well, it will haunt me for a few days more, trying to figure out why this mechanism is as good as zeppelin, and if it may be implemented to other structures as well.

Thanks for the structures, i have definitely seen the eight like Zeppelin submitted by Xarax, but i am not sure if Siriuso , or anyone else has entangled nines in a Zeppelin fashion as well.

Link : https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.msg32792#msg32792

[eric22]

Hi tsik_lestat,
Thanks for link, is under “Hugo bend (a descendant/heir of the Zeppelin bend)”
no wonder ​why I can’t find it.
Here is another link; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3148.0
For sure Master Xarax Have tied many Figure 8 bens.
​

[siriuso]

Hi tsik_lestat and Roo

Would you please show me your tying methods of your bends, Zeffelin Bend and Zeppelinesque Figure Eight Bend.

I want to know their starting method/loops form of which I may classify them by family.

yChan

[roo]

@siriuso post:14

Hi tsik_lestat and Roo

Would you please show me your tying methods of your bends, Zeffelin Bend and Zeppelinesque Figure Eight Bend.

I want to know their starting method/loops form of which I may classify them by family.

yChan

On the rare occasion I tie the bend shown in the z8.gif image, I personally start with a “b” and “q” and shove each tail through the opposing shape before finishing.