Fishing Knots - Joining Lines

Practical Knots
1

  1. What knot do you prefer for joining fishing lines?

  2. Can I safely use two San Diego Jam knots, or two Improved Clinch knots, etc., for joining lines like I do with a Double Uni knot? I’ve searched the Internet and have only seen the Uni knot used for multiple fishing needs, such as joining lines as well as attaching lures, etc.

  3. Do you use different knots to join monofilament, braided, fluorocarbon, etc.? Or do you use the same knot for joining all types of fishing line?

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[b]EDIT: After some testing, I’m finding the Zeppelin Bend to be as good as, or better than, common fishing knots for bending fishing lines. I didn’t even test the Double Zeppelin Bend, which is likely to be even stronger than the Zeppelin Bend. Also, the Zeppelin Bend jams up in monofilament. I did not test braided or fluorocarbon. See my Replies #71, etc.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1874.msg13148#msg13148[/b]

2

Based on discussions in another thread, the Zeppelin and Double Zeppelin will be my go-to knot for joining ANY fishing line. I’m putting the Zeppelin family over the Sheet Bend family. If the Zeppelin family somehow fails for joining fishing line, there’s always the Double Uni.

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.msg12788#msg12788

3

What do you have against standard fishing line knots for fishing line? I assume that you’re not trying to untie these knots, and you don’t care much about how much line is used. A little extra strength from the typical fishing knots may be worth it.

4

I have nothing against them. I’m just looking to see what people use by asking the original three questions.

I’ve read that the strength of the Double Uni Knot is not as high as the strength of the Double Sheet Bend (which probably has less strength than the Zeppelin Bend). I read that on a fishing site by a fisherman who actually uses the Double Sheet Bend on fishing line. In fishing line, strength is an important consideration. So, I’m just looking to see people’s experiences. It looks like there aren’t too many fisherman here, or if there are, then this issue is not that important to them.

5

I wonder what the source of that statement is.
The Double Sheet Bend failed for me in several scenarios in which I expect it to hold and that was with “normal” rope. In fishing line I expect it to be
a lot worse.
The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.
I saw a broadcast called “Knot Wars” somewhere on the web in which the Uni Knot was joined winner with the Blood Knot (not the double overhand knot, which is also sometimes called blood knot) when it came to bending fishing line.
They did a good bit of testing. Different line types and many common and not so common fishing knots, several repetitions each time.
The palomar loop, btw. was the winner in the “what knot to use for attaching a fishing hook to a line” category, which was probably a big surprise not only to me.

Edit:
just browsed the web for knot wars and it seems that there is a new champion. The modified albright has beaten the uni to uni.
Nevertheless, it only proves that the uni to uni is a very strong knot and it took a while before a new champion was found and in my opinion, it is a very easy not to tie and remember.
For the average person who goes fishing only once in a while, the palomar loop and the uni knot might be all they ever need.

6

Thank you for the info Transminator.

I’m finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope. In fishing line, I guess jamming is the same thing as security (?). In rope, we know that’s not true because the overhand knot is great for jamming, but it somehow also slips (insecure).

So, please be careful not to jumble up security with strength. For fishing line, security seems to be a giving because if fishing line jams, then it’s also secure. Strength, however, is the quality around which all fishing knots seem to be judged. As you know, strength is so important in fishing line because the line is only as strong as the best knot.

I just want to clarify something that you said. You said, “The Dbl Uni Knot (and that should be obvious by just looking at the structure and the mechanism) out-performs the Dbl Sheet Bend by a mile.”

I have to point out here that your statement may have some validity when talking about fishing lines. However, I don’t think that statement applies to rope generally at all. Going off of pure looks, I would have guessed the Double Fisherman is substantially stronger and more secure than the Zeppelin Bend. Also, I wouldn’t have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it’s more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend. Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.

Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots? Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.

I’m just think this through. I brought these question to this site because the fishing sites don’t want to get too technical when talking about knots. They know what works for them, and they don’t really want to analyze why.

7

No, it’s not the same thing. Jamming just doesn’t factor in because you don’t typically try to untie fishing line. You cut it. It’s disposable.

Also, I wouldn't have guessed the Zeppelin Bend is very secure at all, but in fact it's more secure than any other bend I know even with light coming through the Zeppelin Bend. Again, however, I will highlight that we are talking about fishing line here.
I don't know how a Zeppelin Bend performs in angling situations, but at least in rope, the Double Fisherman's Knot is more secure, perhaps partially due to jamming tendencies storing spring energy that prevents loosening, and partially because of the way the final change of direction of the free ends butt up against each other in the mating plane of the knot.

Usually, people don’t care much about security in angling knots, because common angling knots are overkill enough not to be prone to security issues.

Going back to my original point, if jamming is the same as security IN FISHING LINE, then does that knock out the Sheet Bend and the Zeppelin Bend for being good fishing knots? Neither of these is known for jamming, which is something I do want to happen in a fishing line.
Even if there are no security problems in common rope knots used in fishing line, what's going to knock them out is alternative knots common to angling that have real or perceived strength advantage. Anglers don't want the big one to get away, and their stealthy, slim line plays close to the cliff of breaking strength.
8

Thank you for your input Roo. I have a comment about one thing you wrote.

You may have typed that too fast for me to completely understand, or maybe I just disagree.

I’ve read reports from people who mountain climb about the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman. Some climbers specifically don’t like these knots because of their ability to jam and also slip (strangely) in extreme loadings. On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping. So, I don’t know how it’s possible to get more secure than “never”.

9

Please pass along the reports of slippage (sources, links).

There are different modes of security. The mode that tends to affect most knots in rope is shaking while the rope is slack, causing things to spring open (especially a problem in stiff, slippery rope).

10

In that case, the word security get’s rather complex. A trucker tying down a load for his truck (lots of shaking) will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking). I’d guess the security of the Zeppelin Bend outperforms most, or all, bends when the application is mostly load and less shaking.

11

This article analyzes slippage of the Overhand, the Double Overhand and the Figure 8 in extreme conditions:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474a-9229-9c9e00a60c7f

Abseiling is about as important as knots can possibly get. Because the Fisherman and the Double Fisherman are in the same family, they too are not exempt from slipping.

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping. So, please provide a report there.

12

I don’t think you can extrapolate flipping in the European Death Knot to problems with the Double Fisherman. Unless I’m missing something, the article seems to contrast the two, with the Double Fisherman being the safe “gold standard” that regrettably becomes difficult to untie:

This is against his “gold standard” of a Double Fisherman’s Knot which broke the rope (at well over 1000kg) in every case, however sloppily it was tied

13

This guy thinks the Zeppelin Bend is more secure than the water knot, fisherman’s knot, double fisherman’s knot, carrick bend, and the rigger’s or hunter’s bend.

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-to-make-a-zeppelin-bend-knot/

Again, I have not heard reports about the Zeppelin Bend slipping. I’m not saying the Zeppelin Bend doesn’t slip. I just have not read any such reports, not even from you (Roo). So, I your statement about the Double Fisherman being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is still unsupported by evidence.

14

Under the vast majority of conditions, I don’t expect either knot to just slip or slither (you can search this forum for teflon-coated floss knots for the exceptions). The evidence I have of the Double Fisherman’s Knot being more secure than the Zeppelin Bend is the slack shaking tests I have done in stiff, low-friction rope in which the Zeppelin Bend springs open and shakes apart before the Double Fisherman’s Knot does so.

15

Here’s the main article that made me start this thread. This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength. That’s incredible.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Sheet-Bend-686.php

The same guy also claims the Uni Knot is at 75% to 80% of strength, which is great but still NOT as good as the Double Sheet Bend.

http://www.marinews.com/Double-Uni-Knot-267.php

OK, fair enough, thanks

16

Conflicting results from more detailed data in different material should at least raise serious doubts:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html

17

Thanks

It’s too bad they didn’t provide test results for the Overhand Bend, Figure Eight Bend and some other common bends for climbing/rappelling.

18

This thread has worsened from silly to seriously confused and misleading:
the notion of using Rosendahl’s Zeppelin bend to join fishing lines is
ridiculous, on its face – such lines want knots that jam secure and are strong;
I doubt Rosendahl’s is going to do well at jamming or strength, here.

Now this chatter about “overhand knot” –something or other, but
so far an ambiguous name-- and Fisherman’s knots being in the same
“family”: what … ?!

The Offset Ring Bend (to use a name that shouldn’t be ambiguous:
a Ring Bend loaded in the offset manner) can indeed both “slip” in the
sense of capsizing, aka “rolling”/“inverting”/“flyping”, and jam (and so
produce a break, and strength data). But this end-2-end joint is used
in circumstances where the forces that would lead to either behavior
are not going to be encountered (assuming that the knot is well tied).
Beyond this, there are some simple ways to make the knot secure
against flyping, such as putting a stopper in both tails or the proper one.

I'm finding that the properties of fishing Line are vastly different than the properties of rope.

How are you “finding” this?
(One could say the same thing about various fishing lines,
and various ropes and various tapes.)

As to the Zeppelin Bend, I just have not read anything about that knot slipping. // On the other hand, I have NEVER heard about the Zeppelin Bend slipping. So, I don't know how it's possible to get more secure than "never".

Do you know how it’s possible to never read anything?
– to have virtually never used something (and so never
writing about it)?! Have you read reports of a Double Bowline slipping?
– of Ashley’s bends #1408, 1425, 1425a, 1452, or the Blood knot slipping?!
– or even of the Fig.8 bend slipping?

I’ll surmise that in HMPE (Dyneema/Spectra) rope that Rosendahl’s bend
can slip, and will do so more than Ashley’s #1408, 1425, 1425a, & 1452,
but this is surmise at this point. As for the Grapevine bend (aka Dbl.Fish),
that has slipped in sheathed hi-mod cordage (apparently in test labs of
makers for HMPE, and in one Tom Moyer test w/Technora) --the core
pulling through–, and so a Double Grapevine (Trpl.Fish) is recommended.

A trucker tying down a load for his truck [b](lots of shaking)[/b] will have different considerations than a sailor connecting lines for an anchor (mostly load and less shaking).

I’m not sure that this is the right picture here: a trucker’s load will be set
in sufficient tension to hold it secure, devoid of movement; an anchor
rode will ebb & flow with variations of water flow, at times --not really
anything like shaking, though, but at least a change of tension. Maybe
vibration (under tension) is something the truck line will endure,
which might figure on the holding of a friction knot.
Shaking, per se, is something the bend in a flag-pole line will
get, slapped against the pole (w/some tension).

This guy claims the Double Sheet Bend is useful in monofilaments, super lines, fly line, and also maintains 90% to 95% of strength. That's incredible.

Indeed, “incredible” – or “incredi-bull____” ! :stuck_out_tongue:

One must wonder where this guy came up with such nonsense.
And one can point out to some rather simple reference to this
site w/o looking around; where one could also find this gem of
reiterated assertion (it is near verbatim of the '78? press item):

[i]Tests conducted by the English showed the [u]Hunter's Bend[/u] not to be as strong as the Blood Knot, however[u] stronger than the fisherman's and sheet bends[/u].
Now, work all that into the tiny span between 95% and 100%! (I see his animation of [i]SmitHunter's[/i] bend botches the first [i]Overhand[/i].)

In stark contrast to this misinformation, one will usually find the
strength of the Sheet Bend put at about 55%; in testing of 3 types
–7mm accessory, 10.5mm dynamic, & 12.7mm “static”-- of nylon
kernmantle ropes, Dave Richards found the Sheet & Dbl.S. to slip,
with strengths IIRC in the 50s% range.

Beyond that, though, the site’s knot-tying advice seems sensible,
and I especially appreciate the urging to recycle tangled/used line
– I have procured samples from just such a recycling bin (incl.
some Bimini Twists, for examination, and much line!).

–dl*

19

Dan, I appreciate your knowledge and detailed response, but wow this thread has gone off track. I think I need to go to a fishing-specific site to answer the original three questions. It wasn’t until we got off track when the thread started getting active here. I’ll admit these side ventures are entirely my fault because I took the thread off track in my second post.

20
  1. Blood or various modifications of the Uni-Knot, such as:

http://www.everglades-fishing.com/everglades-fishing/images/knot1.jpg

  1. Yes.

  2. You can use the same set of knots. If you’re unsure of a knot, why not test it in the fishing line you use?