Fundamental Knots

Practical Knots
1

Hi all

I am a researcher at Durham University and we are looking into the Scientific Properties of Complex Knots http://www.maths.dur.ac.uk/spock/index.html/, with my research focusing on the reasons why we use knots.
I’d like to get some ideas from the forum about which knots are used most widely and why.

Which knots would you say are the most important to know and why?

Which knot would you say you use most often and is most fundamental for you? For example, if you were asked to tie a knot for a purpose you don’t already know a knot for, which would be the first knot you would go to to try?

Thank you for your help!

Lauren

2

Here are some I use often:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

I go into the reasons for including each knot in their respective pages.

People use knots because they fulfill a function, obviously. Beyond that, I tend to notice that the knots that get used most often are either essentially simple, or a have a method of tying that is simple. Unfortunately the general population will even choose simple knots even when they don’t function well, generally speaking. People are often in too much of a hurry to do much research.

3

Over about ten years, I have developed my personal categories for knots I use. For each category, I have about 5 of my favorite memorized knots for that category. If I come across a new application for which I have not imagined a knot, then I can improvise based on my memorized list. I later do research and work out the best solution for that new application. The research sometimes involves adding a new knot to my list. I haven’t added a new knot to my memorized list in about 2 years.

4

If you just hand me a rope and ask me to tie a knot on it without telling me for what purpose, I tie an overhand knot. It is quick and easy and doesn’t waste my time very much. “You wanted a knot”, I’d say, “well here is a knot. You didn’t tell me what you wanted it for, and I’ll not ask you how you will use it.”

The knot I use the most is the slipped square knot, to tie my shoelaces.

Suppose I didn’t already know a knot for tying a rope to a flagpole to hang a bucket on it. I might try a couple of roundtturns around the pole followed by attaching the tail end to the standing part (the part attached to the bucket in this case) with a couple of half hitches.

Or suppose I didn’t know already a knot for forming a fixed loop, but still wanted to make one. I might end up with folding the line double and tie an overhand on it. Perhaps. There are myriads of ways to make a fixed eye, and it is hard to know which one I’d come up with if I didn’t already know any of those ways.

The knots I’ve described so far may be a good starting point for studying knots of all kinds. Look at the round turn, compare it to the half hitch and to the overhand. See how you can combine these structures to solve many knotting problems.

What knot you tie always depends on the purpose for knotting. You can use the sheet bend to attach one line to another, but you can’t use it to tie your ocean liner to a bollard. The common bowline is not well suited for attaching a fishing line to a hook. You never tie a knot without having some kind of purpose in mind. I guess that in my mind there is not much difference between a knot and the purpose for it.

When tying parcels i use a figure eight noose and a pair of half hitches. When I feel a bit more fancy-like, I add in a crossing knot as well. When bundling up something soft I make a fixed eye, either a bowline or a perfection knot, depending on how permanent I want the loop to be, reeve the rope through the eye, pull tight and secure it with a couple of half hitches.

In conclusion, then, it looks like I’m a bit partial to half hitches. I hope this answer may be of some help.

5

Speaking generally and not about you personally…

If a person is going to write a paper about knot research, then I recommend practicing as many knots as possible for at least a year. Only people who are really into knots will value the research, and they will be able to see right through the research if it lacks a practical understanding about various knots. It would be like writing a technical car paper for auto mechanics without ever changing motor oil, a car battery, or tires.

6

Looking at the few Knot of the Month entries on that site,
wonder at the realization of this “aim of the project is to create new
computational tools and mathematical techniques for the analysis,
synthesis and exploitation of knotted structures in a wide range of
complex physical phenomena.” --the featured knots don’t impress
me as being much practical or physically intriguing.

Seems that your researchers should be making a journey to the
east and some maritime areas to learn what knotting goes on with
the commercial fishers, for example. Information about knots used
in rockclimbing, arbor work, and SAR can be found from some of
the documents of your (UK) HSE.

with my research focusing on the reasons why we use knots. I'd like to get some ideas from the forum about which knots are used most widely and why.

Which knots would you say are the most important to know and why?


This is a question to be put to various fields of application.
The angler will use …, but the caver/canyoneer/rockclimber
will use … , and … so on. The properties of knots depend
on one’s definition of knot and for practical concerns one
must consider the nature of the knotted medium!

Which knot would you say you use most often and is most fundamental for you? For example, if you were asked to tie a knot for a purpose you don't already know a knot for, which would be the first knot you would go to to try?
One needs to know the particulars of this new rope problem before one can muse about how to solve it. A knot that joins ends of cordage isn't going to be something attempted if the rope problem is to attach one end to some object!

–dl*

7
Which knots would you say are the most important to know and why?
Nominating specific knots is tricky for a variety of reasons: there is often more than one that will do the job; the type and size of cord, and the details of the application, are important factors (e.g. a hitch, such as constrictor hitch, that works on a round pole may not work so well on a square pole); the basic knot may not be suitable but a variation or extension of it might be (such as when adding a lock or doubling the collar on a bowline); and personal preference/allegiance also plays a part.

To try to make a simple list or algorithm is not possible, there are too many ifs and buts, it is too conditional. At least, nobody has done it yet, far as I know.

But I will say it is important to know at least one reliable, well tested knot from each of the basic categories of knots, and to know the limitations of a knot.

To take an obvious example, an Alpine Butterfly loop is a very good fixed non-directional midline loop. It is the first one I teach anybody for this category. Reasons for this choice include that is is very well tested in the field, can be tied easily in the bight, can be inspected easily (very important from a safety angle), doesn’t jam easily (meaning it can be undone without much trouble, when required), and also works well as a bend. But it would not be my first choice for a fixed end line loop, though it will work well enough as one.

For a fixed end line loop, the choice depends on factors like: whether you need ring loading capacity or not, what safety level is required, etc.

Some of these factors are more generic to all knots, like safety level, others are more specific to a limited set of knots, like ring-loading capacity.

And so on…

This is for strictly functional knots. Requiring a decorative element adds another variable.

Which knot would you say you use most often and is most fundamental for you? For example, if you were asked to tie a knot for a purpose you don't already know a knot for, which would be the first knot you would go to to try?

I don’t believe this question can be answered in the abstract. It depends on the concrete details of the application. I would suggest that there are already enough basic knots to cover almost any application you can think of, either with a single knot, or a combination of knots.

In effect, what you are asking us with these questions is: does the knotting world have a coherent system of logical principles for describing and classifying knots, and the practical choice of knots. And the answer, far as I can tell, is no. It is still very much an empirically based enterprise, with guiding rules of thumb.

Maybe you can fix that for us. ;D

All the best.

8

Well since you brought it up, what exactly would you use?

9

Same thing really, a couple of round turns upwards the pole, but instead of two half hitches I’d secure the working end to the standing part with a small bowline loop for ease of adjustment and untying and for better security. I may be wrong about the improved security but I just feel more safe around bowlines than around half hitches. In the example I came up with I tried to think like someone who was unfamiliar even with the concept of tying a fixed loop. Half hitches and round turns are about the simplest elements of knotting, I think, and therefore anyone might be able to come up with a solution built on those.

For attaching the bucket handle I’d use a groundline hitch with an overhand stopper knot on the tail if the handle was fairly round, otherwise I’d tie it with a cow hitch in the bight of a bowline.

I guess there are many individual preferences for a knotting task like that. Maybe you have a better way, or a way you would be more comfortable with?

10

I’m not surprised that you should mention the icicle hitch, since it is essentially the same knot as what I described, except for how the working end is fixed. The way both knots grip the pole is exactly the same. But there is a difference which is important to me: When you pull on the standing part of the icicle hitch in many different directions and not just parallell to the pole in the intended direction, or if you shake it or jerk it, you will find that the icicle bend is less secure than the method i advocate. My knot, which is finished like a running bowline (it is, in fact, topologically identical to a running bowline) will not come loose under those circumstances. It is the tail of the icicle hitch that worries me. It CAN slip, even if it usually does not. But the running bowline, and therefore also the variation of it with some round turns (the one I described), will become tighter when pulled on in any direction.

So the advantage of my favoured method is that it is ridiculously secure. The disadvantage is that it takes longer to tie it, especially if you don’t know a quick method for forming the running bowline. I make use of the overhand noose method for tying the bowline around the standing part. The ordinary method results in a bowline that is too large, and trying to tie a really small eye with that method is too difficult for me. I would really like to learn some quick and easy way to tie a very small fixed eye (post-eye-tiable) around a rope. Even the method I just mentioned (overhand noose around the working end; capsize into bowline configuration) is too awkward and clumsy, and I’m not happy with it.

11

Getting back to the OP’s question I have taken note which knots I have used over the past days. by that I mean when I need a knot and am not really thinking about it (the purpose being at least not critical if not trivial) then I came up with these:

Bend - surgeon’s knot. Possibly a Lapp knot especially if slipped. Both are quick and easy to manipulate, and hold well in string or small cordage.
Fixed Loop - perfection loop. Again in small stuff quick easy and reliable.
Adjustable loop - bowstring knot (holds the lid on the compost bin!)
Temporary hitch - clove hitch
Semi-permanent hitch - anchor hitch
Slide & Grip - Prusik or pipe hitch

I have a Prusik tied around a copper tube hung vertically using some 4mm polyprop hollow braid. The tube has a right angle bend about 9" from the lower end and holds a heavy roll of wall lining paper in the garage - in use the tube forms a spindle slung horizontally to enable easy take off of the paper. The sling is long and is half hitched near the top of the pipe with the end of the sling over a nail. It holds very well and is so easy to take off and put back on again (about once a week) that it replaced a pipe hitch.

If I were tying in a critical situation eg where serious damage would result from failure then i would think about any number of knnots which might be appropriate - the difference being that the list above is the “no thought” list just let your fingers get on with it.

Sweeney