hawser bowline, extra step winding the collar legs on

[alana]

is this feasible, or nay.

➰️ hawser bowline | winding | steps | variants

here the working end will double up, and be winched onto the s.part, i think; forms u-turns, or an s-shape?

the third example might need a bit of babysitting while tying it, but fun to watch if nothing else

can’t see it (or bends) in the Ashley book, but it could be obscure?

… i have been taking a closer look at bowlines, influenced by the forum chats ! and learning from the clear text and illustrations from PACI thanks agent_smith

4mm poly cord cover

3mm dyneema, an brief ball-park test on car jack to see what happens. the markings on the tails each started out at 15mm from their exit, (hand tightened maybe 15kg) and have moved about 8mm and 3mm, but i don’t know what the weight on the jack was. possibly 40kg.

[kost_greg]

Hello Alana

Very good demonstration and analysis including also video with quite observable tying techniques.

I’m looking into your second marlin spike-like configuration, and starting with good news first, i maintain that, the knot is stable, secure with a rock solid core in its final energy stable state and it is generally a fine method to stabilise a crossing knot.

However, i see that you are using a small diameter, relatively soft rope, and with only hand tightening (cinching), your core is subjected to some modifications that alternate its initial form, until the energy stable point is reached.

This very state shown in your illustration, looks like a blop of ropes, with no actual access point to interact with after being subjected to a serious level of loading (more than 40 kg).

A folded bight structure and also severely compressed by SP, impedes the loosening process to a serious extent.

Try to imagine the state of this core with a stiffer large diameter static rope, in heavy stress conditions.The loosening situation could be achieved only with the use of the right tool, such as a hammer.

That’s also the reason that i do not dare delving into your third configuration, because more complexity in the nipping component, would be no less than a very stiff and hardly manageable core.

In my opinion, it would be great only for light weight.

Very smart, marlin spike manipulation tying techniques, i’ll give you that.

I believe these structures are not well documented, the closest thing i have seen is the following Alan Lee’s marlin spike loop, where the returning structure is actually a loop and not a bight.Maybe the loop is a more effective returning binder with less distortion?Can’t be 100% sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaVQJl_dEc

Glad to see you exploring bowlines .

Another video of the original creator Alan Lee testing his marlin spike loop with a small diameter soft rope up to destruction!Easy loosening with this type of rope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iye0tGpG3q0

[alana]

Glad to see you exploring bowlines

it’s contagious!

thanks Kost_Greg for assessing these knot forms and detailed commentary!; and, they aren’t bowlines anymore?

I’m very glad to know the good news first, that the marlin spike-like knot passes as stable.

and then the bad news that they are prone to blop, especially demo knot #3, under heavy stress … i could see what was happening, and you were able to word it

with no actual access point to interact with

i’ve learnt much! thanks for (digging up) the Knotting Knots’ video and Alan’s video, great. i wouldn’t know how to find such, as it’s difficult to search for something when you don’t know the name of what you’re looking for - that’s why i ask here

[kost_greg]

@alana

they aren’t bowlines anymore?

The components that form your core, suggest by definition, that they are quasi-bowlines, with a TIB nipping structure equivalent to unknot, hitched with a returning bight structure, but i have a hard time supporting their bowline qualification within the broader sense of the bowline concept, as we have conceived it.

Yet, the interaction is quite important and might point to other directions.

For instance, if i apply your brilliant marlin spike method, as shown in the following image, with the loop placed under the SP this time from the other side, as indicated by the white arrow, another configuration is formed,

which is subsequently WE hitched in hawser-like and marlinspike fashion ,

Now if you load the above structure and perform a slight maneuver such as a collar flip, you get a more conventional bowline, which i think Dan Lehman would appreciate (EBSCB).

[alana]

oh, that is a great tweak, the tail to the inside; i had tied it and missed recognising it as aesthetic - but it is! i had just gone along with the direction that the W.E naturally went (least resistance). but it appears that the tail to the inside resembles the usual bowline, and is more secure than before?; because the (..consults PACI diagram..) entry leg is sitting on the exit leg and clamping it down in a tidy manner.

the way you’ve tied it with the SPart ‘segment behind’ brought through and folded to the right, makes the knot form up and balance itself out in an intriguing way. it’s a beauty. i will stare some more at it. so different from if the tail is tied to go outside. also, notice that if the tail is pulled out by one tuck, it becomes a <deleted incorrect ‘cowboy bowline’> left hand bowline (of your knot, both: tail to the inside, and tail to the outside).

quasi-bowlines

=) happy to have it in a category now.

having a re-tie of my quasi-bowline, but with the WE coaxed to sit inside the eye, it is an instant improvement . there are piles of variants, and good to find the picks. photo: i just posed the WE behind itself to hold it there for the photo. all it wants to do is move to the outside. arrow points at snug-looking contact? (good)

[alana]

reminds me of Xarax’s Bingo bend, with shapes in it that he called ‘hooks’

BINGO bend (Xarax June 2020)

In June 2020, Xarax sent me an interesting ‘bend’. At the time, he assigned the name ‘Bingo bend’. The loading profile was as per image ‘X’ (refer to attached image). The image sent to me (in June 2020) had the dressing in an energy stable state. Apparently, at another time - it appears that he also presented the ‘bend’ in a flattened ‘heart’ shape - with no defined loading profile? I have no personal information on this (only can discuss what was sent to me at that time). I think this is …

[alana]

pictures of the hook shape in Alan’s files: Lee's Super 8 Loop & other nipping structure - #19 by eric22

[alana]

these knots resemble the tying of the Jamming Bend!, ABOK 1471;

so, to apply the description to these quasi-bowlines:
This quasi-bowline is tied with the working end tucked through the modified marlinspike hitch; both ends of the hitch are pulled, which engages the working end, and the quasi-bowline is formed in the parts of both.

the description of the Short End Bend, ABOK 1473, describes the end as being ‘swallowed’.

the term jamming bend seems to mean this mechanism where the end is folded / scrunched into place?, hence the name ‘jamming’; it could very well be a general term? i have been looking at 8 variants (and more) of these q.bowlines and their bends, and some of them appear like-to-jam!

[alana]

photos incoming, 8 variants,
i hope the table is self explanatory,
pardon the wording, not sure of it all, yet.

many of them i think had something a bit unbalanced about them;
the tail in or tail out option would might be decided by whichever way the tail naturally fell in. to exclude variants.
handedness and ease of tying selects viable or practical variants, could halve the number of variants.

next photo is the other side of the knots; i realise i should’ve shown both sides together, but they kinda all looked the same to me.

the aim of it all was to add the simple step (a function?) of bringing the S.Part segment through the loop and to one side, to see if any security could be added to the hawser bowline.

here in this photo, the tails have been untucked by one step, which i think shows a core structure for each.

all this to see if the quasi-form could be then be named a ‘(core knot) with a U-fold lock’

[alana]

winner!, turns out the pick of the 8 variants seems to be Kost_Greg’s instinctively tied q.bowline
which was possibly the most balanced;
others seemed to roll the nub, seemed a waste of energy?, and other meh factors.

but back to this variant that was actually last on my array of 8 - similar tying step as the hawser bowline, from the r.h side.
with the tail set to inside of eye, looked like a practical shape as a bend. also looks pretty, with a Lark’s Head (illusion?) element.

i additionally tied 8 variants in slip knot orientation,
so, of now 16 variants in total, this still is looking like the one with the best shape and attributes.
also, i don’t know how these all translate into other larger ropes.
but here it is again, Kost_Greg’s first off-the-bat q.bowline

[alana]

the slip knot based quasi anti-bowlines;
any checking and evaluating are welcomed, in fact solicited;
the table of 8:

here they are:

the other sides:

the one marked with a star (☆) ends up looking something like this:

when tail is untucked:

… and that’s quite enough knot tying for today

[alana]

i had success using demo #3 knot as a finger handle on some slippery dental floss!