In light of the US’s new healthcare bill, I was wondering how you Europeans, Canadians, and everyone else like your current system. How’s the quality and timeliness? Is there anything you would change about it if you could?
–Son of Liberty
In the past 12 months (with an operation at the end of this month) I’ve had more than my share of healthcare in the UK. I have had tests and investigations of just about every conceivable kind - I’ve even seen my own insides on camera! - and been treated in an emergency at the start. All of the care I have had has been timely, carried out professionally and without any sign of cost being an issue. The standard of care (and food) in hospital was excellent. Over the years my wife has also had 1 major operation, 3 relatively minor ones (during one of which the surgeon removed an ingrowiing tonail as a “freebie” while she was asleep!) and a hip replacement. There is no doubt that waiting times have improved as has access to specialists over recent years. Would I change anything? I don’t think so - it ain’t broke so don’t try and fix it just make incremental improvements along the way. Maybe one thing - the beds are awfully hard and lead to a painful syndrome called “numb bum” but you learn to live with it. I should add that I am a diabetic on insulin and take around 10 pills per day for various failings but as I’m over 60 this costs me nothing though I’ve paid some hefty taxes over the years (and still do!) so I’m not feeling guilty about it.
Barry
That?s comforting to hear Mr. Barry. I?m curious (and confused) to know where the UK healthcare system and others have picked up such a bad reputation though. It seems like every European I talk to loves their system, but I keep hearing these horror stories from those who know a friend of a friend who waited to see a doctor for 8 months for a heart attack. Was there a bad system in the past that was revamped to its current status now, or perhaps these are isolated?if not made up?incidents? Maybe region or degree of illness plays a part?
–Son of Liberty
PS: I wish you and your wife good health, and hope you both have continued good experiences with the system!
Well considering I am a Veteran and my medical is paid for anyway, I guess it does not bother me personally. But on the other hand, I can’t see my tax dollars going to take care of people that don’t even live in my country, nor did they do anything for my country. For me it is not about the flag, or patriotism. It’s about can the people in my country afford this kind of system over a long period of time. This, I don’t know for sure. Here in my country we have a big share of immigrants that are not even on our governments books for citizenship, and yet our system takes care of them through the welfare and social security. Most of them are just plain lazy and getting fat off the American tax dollar. I can’t stand it when I see one of them do the old feel sorry for me routine. I just don’t think that our system is going to be strong enough financially to do all this for an extended amount of time. As I was told a long time ago, the deficit is just as inevitable as death. Too bad there is no way to buy stock in those two items.
Brian…
I think that a lot of people love to tell their favourite (usually embellished but with a grain of truth) horror story about healthcare. In the UK there is almost a culture of knocking the health service when in fact its biggest problem is probably the patients themselves eg you wait a long time after your appointment time simply because of those who fail to turn up have forced the system owners to overbook to avoid having highly paid professionals sitting around. Moaning is a national pastime here! I’ve learned to only listen to those with personal experience and not that of somebody’s uncle’s second cousins neighbour’s best friend - the truth has long since become legend. Bear in mind that the UK health service (the NHS) is I think the 2nd or third biggest employer in the world (after Indian railways and Walmart?) it is some organisation - and that it runs at all is a credit. But you cannot satisfy all of the people all of the time…
Barry
Knot Head
I haft to say I would like some source for your blanket statement that most illegal aliens are lazy. I work in the construction industry in central Texas and have for 18 years. I know and have worked with many Mexican immigrants legal and illegal and almost every one of them without fail could and did work most men into the dirt. Every one that I might call lazy are at lest 1st gen American and I could count them on one hand. Those men have families back home depending on them for the $ they send back to Mexico every week or month, many have wives and children that still live in Mexico in an abject poverty that one would haft to see to even begin to understand. I visited Cozumel on vacation my wife and I left the tourist district to visit some of the local artist and shops that evening I cried for those ppl. No human deserves that life.
“god money’s not looking for the cure
god money’s not concerned with the sick amongst the pure
god money let’s go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money’s not one to choose”
- NIN
Both good and bad thing can be said about Swedish health care, but when all is said and done, it is rather good. The decisions and priorities are based on what the patient needs, not what the care costs or what his/her insurance company is prepared to pay.
There is the universal problem of waiting time, of course, but the government has issued a “time guarantee”, which states that if the waiting time for e g an operation exceeds three months at your local hospital, they must refer you to another clinic (at their cost - not yours). If you call your local health centre in the morning you are guaranteed to see a doctor (“a” doctor - not necessarily “your” regular doctor) the same day, etc. You pay a fee at each visit, SKR 100 at your health centre, SKR 300 if you see a specialist at a hospital or special clinic. There is also a cost guarantee that you will not have to pay more than SKR 900 in 12 months.
There is a shortage of doctors, though, in particular certain kinds of specialists. (Any unemployed psychiatrists out there, for example? We have plenty of jobs for you here!!! ::)) This causes some problems and extra waiting time, but in most places the staff works hard to solve this.
So, all in all, Swedish health care is really good and basically, the system is very good.
Lasse
You hear these stories from sources with vested interests in something
at odds with redressing healthcare problems. Maybe you should look
elsewhere for information. (One can “hear” about “Death panels” from
a well-known (recent celebrity status) airhead.)
Have you NOT heard the more local stories of those run out of savings
by medical costs? – of the leading cause of bankruptcies of Americans?
– of the find-any-reason-to-cancel-insurance employees of insurance companies?
Try hearing T.R. Reid’s [u]The Healing of America as a balance
(the land where for decades politicians helped support one of the leading
causes of illness --viz., tobacco).
All very interesting information. It seems that the majority of you European-types like your current systems, so I’ve become much more calmed about our upcoming change. Hopefully everything will work out for the best!
Mr. Lehman, I read an excerpt from The Healing of America. It looks very interesting, and I think I’ll pick it up the next time I’m at the store. I particularly like this quote “In Austria and Germany, if a doctor diagnoses a person as “stressed,” medical insurance pays for weekends at a health spa.” (I know where I’d be spending a lot of my weekends ;D)
Thanks for everyone’s input!
–Son of Liberty
I have to agree with this. I live in Virginia for 18 years. We used to joke “What’s yellow and sleeps six? A VDOT truck.” And yet, the Guatemalans that worked the private contractors were some of the hardest working folks out there. They looked like they weren’t living much better than they would have in their native countries, but that was because they usually kept only what they needed to live and pay bills. Everything else went back home. Here in Tampa, FL, we have a majority Cuban population, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen them being lazy. In fact, I know a guy who retired and still mans the shop 3-4 days a week to help the new owner.
I second Lasse on his statements re Swedish health care. I have also had the opportunity to see what it is like in other European countries, and it is not a lot different. Our insurance covers the whole European Union, so any EU citizen should expect similar service all over Europe.
I also have seen the Cuban system from inside, and I guess that the movie Michael Moore made might have had some impact in the USA, but most of what is said about Cuban health care is just propaganda. A few days more (The Cuba Green Screen board will shut down soon), my post about what I went through the last time I was there a couple of months ago will still be up at the green screen: http://www.cubagreenscreen.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6896
If i ever get into a situation where I need health care, I hope it will not be in Cuba.
I have spent a fair bit of time in hospital recently, visiting a family friend (who has sadly died). During the months of visiting I saw first hand - urine running across the floor, staff (nurses) stealing patients food, food being left in front of patients too weak to feed themselves then taken away without any help given to feed them, food recorded as being eaten when it was not, wrong medicine given, potassium drip which should have been given for one dose continued for three days and a stroke that went unnoticed by staff until friends and family insisted something was wrong, by which time it was too late to undo the damage. I have watched the hospital close wards due to ‘Winter vomiting virus’ and yet watched as doctors and nurses went through the barriers without any attempt to sanitise their hands or their equipment.
Against this, there stands a huge divide in standards within the Critical Care wards where the level of professionalism and care were stunning as I watched doctors and nurses fighting to support people on the very edge of death and bring them back to being able to live without the support of the machines that were keeping them alive.
The gulf in standards, quality and professionalism between Critical Care and the ordinary wards is a divide that you have to be very strong or very lucky to be able to survive. Some of the NHS is excellent, some is good and some is shamefully disgusting (one nurse wore her hair in matted dreadlocks and the stink of bad feet and B.O was nauseating, yet she worked in Critical Care).
The worst issue seems though to be an indifference to accountability. Doctors and consultants are above the rules and disregard hygiene controls. One Podiatrist working with diabetics never sterilised tools between one patient and the next and when challenged about the risk of giving MRSA to a diabetic, she said she never swabbed for MRSA because it would always come up positive and they would be given a hard time if they recorded too many positives.
I am disgusted at the failings of the NHS. I used to be responsible for the safety of millions of portions of foods and never had a single case of sickness, let alone a death. If I had failed, the company I worked for would have been wiped out from bad publicity, yet the NHS regularly infects those it is supposed to be caring for and disregards the fact that many people who fall foul of ‘HAI’ (hospital acquired infections) go on to be killed by their infections, yet despite the fact that the food industry proves every day that it is easily possible to control infection, the NHS gets away with killing people on a large scale because they have no accountability.
None of the things I have stated are hearsay - I personally witnessed each and every incident and many more besides.
Derek
I never said anything about a specific people.
Mr. Smith,
My condolences on your loss.
You paint a pretty dark picture?pretty much exactly what I?ve been worrying about with this new bill (not to mention the government takeover of 1/6 of the economy, the federal government forcing its citizens to buy a product, unsound economic plans, and a growing pompousness of Congress, who passed this bill despite only 38% of Americans approved of it, and who hammered out the details of it behind closed doors).
Not that the current system is perfect now, of course. At the end of the day, insurance companies really only care about making a profit. I guess there is no perfect system.
–Son of Liberty
You keep uttering Republican sound bites, and that really irritates me.
Doesn’t it bother you that from Day-1 the Repub.s locked hands and
chose an agreed diction in opposition to the very idea of healthcare reform?
Just as the prior Gestapo-like administration did with their PR-chosen
“War on Terror”, “Patriot…”, “Terrorist” bullsheepload? Where they
chose not not-to-torture but to not CALL it “torture”?! Wouldn’t you
love to waterboard Cheney - Rumsfeld - Wolfowitz - Feith - Bremmer - Libby
and Gonzalez and hear them squeal?! – not “torture” to them, who redefined
the condition, of course, so feel no guilt. Where is the accountability of
this administration? Iran & Venezuela have their crazy leaders; so did the
USA – one who invaded a country which we will occupy for ages. What
would YOU do if you were Iranian: buy Halliburton stock?
A people can come together to try to solve an issue such as healthcare,
which affects all. Or they can let the private industry seek to reap profits,
for a few, at many’s expense. Let’s see how the unregulated private
financial industry did at that? – or the old Microsoft (“M$”) behavior
of driving OUT innovation, all the while claiming themselves to be
The Great Innovator (I recall how their “innovations” with Hotmail
–whom they acquired, mind you-- were consistently behind those of
then vigorous Yahoo), to preserve their monopoly (and they were too
big to get justice, here in the USA, courtesy of an egregiously pompous
federal judge P.).
This same Republican party that seeks to rub religious differences (their
litmus test of conservative “values” of anti-abortion yet pro-war/pro-guns)
to benefit, who are so concerned about human life PRE-birth but not so
much after, … What Gun Would Jesus Use? – not their question.
That Repub. party in control for two terrible terms under Bush who did
what for healthcare, re coverage, fairness, effectiveness, and prices?
Who are now locked in blood oaths to prevent SOMEthing from being done.
We give support to the bad-food providers with sugar/corn-syrup subsidies,
and grow a healthcare-needing obese population,
driving around in blood-for-oil-thirsty massive SUVs,
demanding the MidEast or Nature give up the oil to quench … .
(which only increases prices of petroleum-based synthetic fibres).
.:. The best “elected” officials MONEY CAN BUY.
There’s the problem: god money. And who has the money?
Eisenhower long ago warned of the Military-Industrial-Congressional
complex; we have not heeded that, and General/Pres. E. dropped off the
last part of this triad, to not irritate Congress (it is thought). Think of
the F-22, politically situated in every important district so as to be
necessary politically even though unwanted militarily (even!). And of
other military spending unwanted by the generals but procured by the
politicians. But no “government takeover” of healthcare, god forbid!
The population should demand a public campaign system for laying out
policy positions and debate, and come to eschew privately promoted rubbish;
NOT the lame sound-bite, t.v.-ad-based system we now suffer through,
where MILLIONS of $$$$ go to some 30 seconds of half-truths repeated.
Where Mr.X is given good chances because he has a billion dollars .
Where scientific gerrymandering of voting districts can be so effective
to preserve the status quo. I notice how George F. Will loves to take
about monthly shot as supposed infringements on “free speech”, all
the while ignoring that such affected speech is nowhere near free,
but privy only to those with deep wallets.
Let the anti-“takeover” advocates propose the end of Medicare
(oops, wait, that is one of their bitches about the new law – that IT
lessens (the privileged) Medicare Advantage.); let them rail against
the Canadian system and deny veterans their rather similar treatment;
and guard against those cheaper Canadian drugs in the supposed
interest of protecting “American Citizens’” health – as we all can see,
Canadians are dropping like flies from those drugs (well, maybe they
built up some immunity, eh?).
. . . and so on . . .
Sorry to hear of Derek’s sights. Those could probably exist (probably
do exist) in private places as well. The circumstances surrounding end
of life (age, esp.) can be far from pretty, dignified. The staff are often
poorly paid and their work tedious, thankless, and hopeless (i.e., one
cannot hope for recovery from aged dementia, etc; only a peaceful
and sometimes mercifully soon end to suffering).
We mostly also don’t look closely at how meat stocks are made (conditions
of livestock), and so we are fewer vegans than we might otherwise be.
Check what “news” stories are presented to you each time you get a Yahoo
or MSN … intro page: Is Tiger remorseful? Are Brad & Angelina happy?
Is Britney …, Beyonce’, … Did she say that he said that … ?
“Reality T.V.” ???
If, in this “takeover” of care for ourselves, we had to pay … for the wastefulness
of cheap unhealthy practices, maybe we’d then save the money headed their
way? We’d NOT help support tobacco, since it was (contrary tobacco-paid
testimony to the contrary) costing us in medical treatment. (Such an irony that
the youth, as some act of defiance to authority, take up giving blow jobs to
Big Tobacco’s little white ! – and become addicted, to thereafter
support the industry product.)
Follow the money …
Or they can let the private industry seek to reap profits, for a few, at many's expense.
What makes you think that the British NHS is any different? It is locked up tighter than a drum and we all pay into a giant money making machine.
Sorry to hear of Derek's sights. Those could probably exist (probably do exist) in private places as well.
I developed Tinnitus and my GP arranged for me to see an NHS consultant (no choice over who I saw) 8 months later I had a ten minute consultation with an Indian doctor who’s diction was almost incomprehensible and who told me to go away and learn to live with it (not a hint about the value of Vit B12).
I developed a hernia and because surgery was involved, I decided to save up and ‘go private’. I chose the surgeon based on his history of post surgery infections (zero) and agreed with him the style of surgery (yes he gave me options with explanations of pros and cons). I had an appointment in two weeks that fitted in with my own timetable. On the day I had a (clean) room to myself, I did not have to wait, I had a clean bed and clean laundry, polite nurses who knew who I was and what I was there for. Care, quality and hygiene were all excellent - yes it was expensive, but care quality and hygiene costs money, and if the service had got it wrong and infected me, they would have been destroyed by bad publicity and gone out of business - so they don’t even consider risking killing anyone.
THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY both to the patient and to their shareholders.
When the cost of a HAI could be your life (yes, my friend lost his wife to MRSA from an NHS operation and another friend spent 3 months fighting for his life from an MRSA infection picked up in NHS hospital after an op) - a very real risk today for surgery in the NHS, then what is that worth to you? some of your life savings?
If I were able to choose private vs NHS, then I would choose private every day and be poor, rather than risk death from sloppy and unaccountable NHS
Derek
It looks like I started up a pretty heavy debate ;). I know it’s hard to express emotion through text, so I just want to let everyone know I’m keeping it friendly :). And forgive me if my grammar is off–I’ve been up 40 straight hours working on reports.
I’m not officially Republican, but I do usually vote for them. I believe aligning with a party can be detrimental to the democracy the party system was created to help! I vote for those candidates who I feel will support my most important issues, not for those who are in my party.
If you?re referring to the fact that Bush used patriotic sentiments to rally up support, then yes he did do that–but so does every leader who has to go to war. But, that administration can’t fairly be compared to Hitler’s rule. Hitler was a truly evil person, if he can even be called a person. He willingly attacked neutral countries just to acquire their land. He hunted and killed Jews as a scapegoat for his failing economy. The Bush administration is bound by civilized morals. The war was started in retaliation of 9/11. It was absolutely necessary to hunt, find, and end this threat to innocent lives, who plainly stated they would attack again. All this nonsense about the war being about oil is ridiculous. Sure, having access to oil is one good point about the whole affair, but if the soldiers thought that was all they were securing, they’d quite in a heartbeat. I know for sure I wouldn?t sign up as a Navy Corpsman if I thought my goal was to keep gas in the car (petrol for you British folk I believe.) They volunteer extra tours of duty because they know the good they’re accomplishing. They’re hunting an enemy who killed 3,000 innocent mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters in a single day. They’re fighting terrorist regimes that can fairly be compared with Hitler. These regimes kill their own innocent citizens, burn women?s schools with the occupants locked inside, and send women and young children to their deaths by attaching bombs to them and claiming they’ll burn in Hell if they don’t go through with it.
On the torture issue: I would gladly waterboard every single person prisoner of war we have if I thought it could save even one life. Waterboarding doesn’t cause permanent damage, and they kick themselves for giving up the information 10 seconds after it’s stopped, because they feel perfectly fine.
Do you mean Afghan? We’re not at war with Iran (I guess it could be called a Cold War or a Financing War). Like I said above the Taliban aren’t defending their homes, as many people like to suggest. I once had a professor who called them freedom fighters. Whose freedom are they fighting for? They suppress anyone but themselves. They take severe advantage of the villages they occupy. They kill doctors who are only there to take care of the injured–usually citizens who were caught in the crossfire and even enemy troops! Terrorists just love to shoot at a Corpsman who?s busy taping up a bullet hole in a child?s leg.
The Republicans have been trying to come together. All you hear about in the liberal media is that republicans are only saying “no,” and that they hate poor people. They actually proposed 80 amendments to the bill–not a one of which was accepted by the majority party (democrats). They have been urging the dems to slow down. I don’t know about you, but I sure couldn’t read 2000+ pages in the time they rammed the bill through. Republicans have told the dems they desperately want to work together, but they truly believe that this bill will be detrimental to America. As I’ve said, I usually don’t support a specific party, but I am astounded by the dem’s resolve to disregard the Constitutional rights of Americans. 38% of the population supported the bill–aren’t representatives supposed to “represent” those they serve? These polls should have at least caused them to pause and think about what they were doing.
The dems are severely encroaching on our rights with this bill. They stuffed it with earmarks (a.k.a bribes to get votes). Bribery is illegal in the US, and is grounds for impeachment. They are also forcing the American public to buy a product. That’s much worse than corporations!
I am a hardcore capitalist. I believe the government should keep their hands out of the economy, providing only laws to keep the corporations “good citizens.” That being said, I think the rich (and anyone for that matter) have a moral obligation to help those in need who help themselves, and corporations should never sacrifice their customers for profits. Of course, people are greedy, but the abuses of insurance companies could have been corrected by laws, such as premium caps, etc, (which, as a capitalist, I would have grudgingly accepted).
It’s odd how we punish people for being too successful. In fact, many of the modern innovations we have today are from large corporations who had the man-power and money to fund the research. We need a balanced mix of corporations and small business (assuming corporations are willing to play by the rules).
Junk food really isn’t bad for you. Eating five candy bars a day is though. In fact, without sugar, our bodies wouldn?t be able to function. It’s all about self-control. Except in the case of Coke-a-Cola putting actual coke in their drinks back in the day (not much self-control you can do about that!)
We give these subsidies to just about every agricultural industry, because they are extremely unprofitable on their own. They also create jobs.
I’m 6’8", but I drive a tiny little Oldsmobile. I got it because I wanted to support American industry, and I wanted to do my part to reduce our dependence on foreign oils. I dearly want a Hummer or something of the sort so I don’t have to drive in the back seat, hit my legs on the wheel, and lay back to avoid static cling from rubbing my head on the roof, but I’m willing to make that sacrifice ;).
I’m actually friends with a Buddhist, 2 Hindus, and numerous atheists–all of which are Republicans. Although I would very much like for them to convert to Christianity, I don’t behead them because of our differences (like how a certain few terrorist organizations do when they happen upon a Christian who is bringing water and food to a war-torn village).
Abortion is murder–there’s no other way around it. Just because we can’t see the embryos, (like the cattle industry you mentioned) we think it’s ok to get rid of the little “inconveniences.” You have to understand that to a pro-lifer, abortion is no better than the extermination of the Jews was. (Notice how I am Christian and conservative, but still sympathize with my Jewish counterparts instead of hating them because they’re not Christian).
I hate war, so I can’t really be called a pro-war guy. I do, however, believe war is a necessary tool to defend one’s country. Without war, all the Jews in Europe would be dead, America would have been flattened by Japanese bombings in WWII, and terrorists would continue to kill even more innocent lives.
Owning a gun doesn’t make one a violent, life-hating person. In fact, I own guns because I love life so much. I have a responsibility to protect those I care about, and I’ll support just about anything that’ll make me more effective in achieving that end. Guns save lives by deterring crime. A little old lady with a .38 now has a chance against a 200 lb man. A young woman can actually protect herself against rape or murder on a dark night.
I look closely at the beef industry. In fact, I’ve been writing congress for years asking them to fix it. It’s disgusting, and all the hormones and antibiotics they put in the cattle is ridiculous. Of course, PETA exaggerates these claims to an extreme, and has been known to use old photos from systems that have already been reformed. As for Brangelina, I couldn’t care less.
Tobacco is a horrible product. However, it’s industry has created many jobs and pumped up many economies. Plus, the government doesn’t have the right to tell someone they can’t smoke. If people want to rot their lungs, then they have that right. I do encourage a higher tobacco tax though. It might help keep them out of the youth’s hands. But, if you take away tobacco, they’ll find other things–they always do.
What is happening now with this bill does scare me. If our legislators continue to lose regard for the will of the people, what is to become of America? The government is supposed to be afraid of the people, not the other way around. I would rather live a free life poor, rather than a caged life and rich.
–Son of Liberty
SoL,
Hitler was evil for attacking his weaker peaceful neighbours and for the genocide of the Jews, much like Blair and Bush are evil for attacking the non warring and much weaker Iraq and wiping out vast numbers of the civilian population.
You say the American forces are fighting to redress the murder of thousands of innocents on 9/11 and they would not fight in Iraq without that fire of retribution. Without doubt, Iraqis were involved in the attacks, but look very closely at the scientific data now coming out from the twin towers aftermath. Air liners do not carry tonnes of state of the art demolition charge and you sure as hell don’t build it into your iconic buildings - so where did it all come from in the debris of the aftermath?
Iraq could not have rigged those towers to be demolished (and they clearly were if you study the data), so your soldiers, fighting a just war of retribution are pointing their guns in the wrong direction, because it is clear as the nose on my face - your own government demolished the towers in order to ferment public support for a much needed land and oil grab along with an industry boost that always comes with a war… I think that counts nicely as evil.
And of course, it wouldn’t be the first time they have done this sort of thing - think how you got into WW2
Derek
The problem with people in the Redistribution of Wealth-Care systems is that they don’t know anything different, so they cannot provide an objective assessment of what is good or not. To them, a three month wait for life-saving surgery might seem “good”. :
Command economy solutions are always inferior to free enterprise, competitive solutions.
For what it’s worth, I’d much rather see a law that mandates capital punishment for lawmakers who vote for bills they have not read.