Which knots can be tied in the bight and with a free end? I’m looking to get a good list and expand my abilities. All I know that I can do both ways is the clove hitch and the constrictor. Trying to do it with the icicle hitch but can’t find a clear diagram. What can you do?
To be clear, I’m looking for hitches that can be tight in the bight, like the constrictor hitch.
I’m not looking for hitches tight WITH the bight, where the bight is used like a standing end.
Some hitches:
Timber hitch, round turn and two half hitches and buntline can all be tied using the bight as a working end.
Pile hitch, constrictor hitch, cow hitch and sailors hitch can be tied on the bight if you have access to one of the object ends.
Halter hitch, eskimo hitch, marlinespike hitch and mooring hitch are all tied in the bight.
The prusik is an example of a gripping hitch tied in the bight.
As far as I know, any that can be tied on a bight can also be tied by using a free end, but not necessarily the other way around. The following are only some knots that can be tied on a bight:
Clove Hitch
Constrictor (ABOK #1249)
Double Constrictor (ABOK #1252)
Butterfly (ABOK #1053)
Handcuff (ABOK #1140)
Tom Fool (ABOK #1141)
Jug Sling (ABOK #1142)
Double Splayed Loop (ABOK#1100)
Overhand Loop, Figure 8 Loop, Figure 9 Loop, etc.
Slipped Overhand Loop, Slipped Figure 8 Loop, Slipped Figure 9 Loop, etc.
Pile Hitch, Double Pile Hitch, etc.
Cow Hitch
Girth Hitch
Bull Hitch
Marlin Spike
Prusik
Klemheist
Slipped Buntline
Mooring Hitch
Highwayman Hitch and other similar exploding hitches
Bowline On a Bight (ABOK #1080)
Bowline With a Bight (ABOK #1074)
Bell Ringer (ABOK #172)
Bell Ringer + HH Lock (ABOK #173)
Three Loop Bowline
Two Loop Figure 8
Double Dragon
Figure 8 Directional Loop (ABOK #1058)
Karash Double Loop
Sheepshank
Span Loop (ABOK #1049)
Here’s a quick test to determine if you can tie a knot on a bight: After slipping the knot off the object, can you untie the knot completely without having access to the working end? If yes, then you can tie that knot on the bight somehow. For example, a normal Timber Hitch (ABOK #1665) slipped off the object cannot be untied completely without having access to an end. So, a Timber Hitch cannot be tied on a bight. Some of the knots mentioned by Hrungnir don’t pass this test.
:o
If we’re allowed to use a bight as a working end, then every knot can be tied on a bight.
Being able to tie hitches on the bight is quite useful when dealing with a long rope. You don’t wanna pull 10meters of rope through the knot. There are situations where you don’t have access to one of the object ends. There are also situations where you will reduce complexity by being able to treat the bight as a working end.
Slipped BuntlineIsn't this one of the hitches you didn't approve?
Yeah, but a Slipped Buntline is a common knot. Come on. Be reasonable. Let’s not be silly. For example, a Zeppelin Loop is NOT normally considered a knot that is tied on a bight.
Like I said, if we we’re allowed to use a bight as a working end, then every knot can be tied on a bight, and there would be no point to this thread. It’s OK to be wrong, recognize one’s error and then move on with a productive conversation.
For example, a normal Timber Hitch off the object cannot be untied completely without having access to an end. So, a Timber Hitch cannot be tied on a bight. Some of the knots mentioned by Hrungnir don't pass this test.Roo has demonstrated how a Timber Hitch can be tied in the bight: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html
The second pic shows a “Timber Hitch on a Bight”. That’s not a Timber Hitch (ABOK #1665).
If we put the words “on a Bight” after every knot, then every knot can be tied on a bight. How many times do I have to repeat this? Are you just trying to get underneath my skin?
Thanks knot4u for the list. And for this:
can you untie the knot completely without having access to the working end?I should have though of that.
I should have said, but I’m specifically looking for hitches that can be tied in the bight, not with a bight.
Of those in your list, I don’t know how to tie the following in the bight:
Slipped Buntline
Mooring Hitch
Double Dragon
Karash Double Loop
Double Constrictor (ABOK #1252)
Not sure about the Klemheist being tied in the bight: both ends of the post would have to be free wouldn’t they?
A Slipped Buntline is not a “Buntline on a Bight”. Slow down before you respond. Think about it for a second.
Tie a Klemheist on a pen or unattached bar. Slip off the Klemheist. You will find that the Klemheist completely unties without having access to an end. Tying a Klemheist by using a bight is not that useful, but hey it’s possible.
I think you’re just not spending the time and trying hard enough. The Double Constrictor is not obvious. So, I’ll give you a pic:
I’m not trying to get under your skin, but I don’t understand why Two Half Hitches and Buntline can’t be tied on the bight, while a Slipped Buntline can.
“Tying a Timber Hitch on the bight” or a “Timber Hitch on the Bight”, is to me pretty much the same thing. I even tried to specify how the hitch should be tied, using the bight as a free end. I’m sorry that my naming of the knot confused you. Or isn’t the “Timber Hitch on the Bight” approved either?
I should have said, but I'm specifically looking for hitches that can be tied in the bight, not with a bight.Why wouldn't you tie the hitches with a bight? Are you going to load both ends of the rope?
I’m not confused. You are.
Again, a Slipped Buntline is not the same as a “Buntline on a Bight”. I asked you to slow down before you replied, but you decided not to do so. A “Buntline on a Bight” is taking a bight of rope, wrapping that bight around an object, and then tying a Buntline by using that bight of rope. In contrast, a Slipped Buntline involves slipping the final tuck of rope. These are two different knots. Notice that BOTH of the knots can be tied without having access to the working end.
Two Half Hitches (ABOK #1710) cannot be tied without having access to the working end. How do I know? Well, it’s the test that I explained above, which you obviously ignored.
Regarding the Timber, read this slowly. A Timber Hitch (ABOK #1665) is not the same as a “Timber Hitch on a Bight”. Those are two different knots. You cannot tie a Timber Hitch (ABOK 1665) without having access to the working end. You CAN tie a Timber on a Bight without having access to the working end. The latter is merely using a bight as the working end. For about the fifth time, if we’re allowed to use a bight as a working end, then every knot can be tied on a bight, and this thread would be useless.
I think you're just not spending the time and trying hard enough.
Yeah you’re right. In fact, I haven’t tried at all. I was just saying the ones I didn’t know yet, hoping you guys would be so kind as to post links and diagrams to give me a head start. Thanks for the double constrictor diagram, but I don’t understand it. I’ll try to work it out from scratch if I can’t find something else.
I did not refer to any Ashley Book knot numbers. I don’t care about 1665 or 1710, it isn’t relevant. I suggested a couple of hitches and I explained how they can be tied on the bight.
can you untie the knot completely without having access to the working end?Yes, the hitches I described can both be tied and untied without using the working end.
In contrast, a Slipped Buntline involves slipping the final tuck of ropeAnd what are you trying to achieve by tying this knot on the bight? What kind of practical problem does this knot/tying method solve, which the knots I described don't?
As far as I can see, it adds confusion/complexity - a couple of round turns around the standing part which doesn’t have any function at all.
Oh Lord, you’re making this thread way more complicated because you’re confused. The Ashley numbers are absolutely necessary for communicating with precision. I provided the Ashley numbers. I then said clearly that you can tie that particular Ashley number by using a bight without having access to the end. When I provide the Ashley number, I’m not talking about a variation. I’m talking about the exact same knot you see in the Ashley figure.
One more time, a Timber Hitch (ABOK #1665) cannot be tied without having access to the working end. I’m talking about the knot shown in the Ashley diagram. I’m NOT talking about a “Timber Hitch on a Bight” shown in the second pic of Roo’s page.
A Slipped Buntline tied by using a bight absolutely has a practical purpose. Again, however, let’s be totally clear. I am NOT talking about a “Buntline on a Bight”. As I explained above, that is a different knot. I am talking about this exact knot as you see it here:
http://i53.tinypic.com/35kvb49.jpg
You can tie a Slipped Buntline without having access to the working end. The practical purpose is if you have a long rope and don’t have access to the working end, or if you want to untie the knot from a distance. It’s important to note that you do need access to the object end if you’re tying a Slipped Buntline by using a bight. Again, a Slipped Buntline is NOT the same as a “Buntline on a Bight”.
A “Buntline on a Bight” also has a practical purpose. If you don’t have access to the working end, a “Buntline on a Bight” will certain hold secure (but can easily jam also).
What doesn’t seem to have much of a practical purpose is something like a Zeppelin Loop tied by using a bight as the working end throughout the entire knot. It’s a double loop that’s unduly bulky.
I’m not entirely sure what you guys are arguing about but, for the remainder of the thread, I want to make a definition. You might choose to take this definition into your working vocab. In any case, this should make the rest of the thread a little clearer:
I’m making a distinction between the phrases “in the bight” and “with the bight”. To illustrate:
“In the bight” means folding the rope into a shape that can immediately be placed over a post. An example is the constrictor hitch tied IN the bight.
“with the bight” means tying a hitch with a doubled rope, in the same manner that would be tied with a single working end. An example is the timber hitch that Hrungnir posted. The diagram indicates that it is “in the bight” but this thread will call that way of working “with the bight”. So that’s the clarification.
Whether you agree with this terminology is moot. It will be the convention for this thread, and if you want to use it elsewhere, so be it.
So let’s move on using these definitions, and stop bickering over a very easily solved misunderstanding.
So what I was looking for is hitches tied in the bight.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html (Tumbling Timber Hitch, per your exclusion)
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/haltersiberian.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/clovehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/catspaw.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bullhitch.html
That should keep you busy for a while. 
That was clear to me from the beginning, but your last sentence there is unnecessary and makes everything confusing again. Both “in the bight” and “with the bight” refer to having no access to the ends. I recommend you delete that last sentence. I also recommend you edit your original post to keep people on track from the beginning.
Every knot can be tied “with the bight”. NOT every knot can be tied “in the bight”.
I recommend you delete that last sentence. I also recommend you edit your original post to keep people on track from the beginning.
Agreed. And done.
If you are talking about the exackt same knot I see in the Ashley figure, you are looking at a completely wrong structure and tying method. I explained what I meant, and that should be enough.
One more time, a Timber Hitch (ABOK #1665) cannot be tied without having access to the working end. I'm talking about the knot shown in the Ashley diagram. I'm NOT talking about a "Timber Hitch on a Bight" shown in the second pic of Roo's page.I don't talk about the #1665. I explained what I meant in my very first post. The #1665 is completely irrelevant and introduced by you.
As I explained above, that is a different knot. I am talking about this exact knot as you see it here:http://i53.tinypic.com/35kvb49.jpg
You can tie a Slipped Buntline without having access to the working end. The practical purpose is if you have a long rope and don’t have access to the working end, or if you want to untie the knot from a distance. It’s important to note that you do need access to the object end if you’re tying a Slipped Buntline by using a bight. Again, a Slipped Buntline is NOT the same as a “Buntline on a Bight”.