Lineman's Rider or Butterfly knot

Practical Knots
1

A few months ago I started to look at the origins of what Ashley calls the Lineman’s Loop, ABOK 1053. I got distracted from this project and just recently restarted it. Ashley attributed it to James M. Drew. Cyrus Day said that the first publication was in a booklet entitled Rope and its Uses by A. A. Burger in 1914. This was called the Butterfly Noose by Wright and Magowan in 1928. The name Butterfly Knot is in common use today. Some add the superfluous adjective Alpine. Alan Warild even has both Alpine Butterfly and Butterfly in his table of knot strengths! I was able to contact him. What he calls the Butterfly was called the Half-Hitch Noose by W&M.

I lost my notes and did not immediately recall what I had done before. I did a simple Google search for: Burger “Rope and its Uses” . Last night I got only two hits. Today I got 15. The second hit was a Google Books scan of the 1917 edition that was revised by another author. The URL is very long
http://books.google.com/books?id=DurNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=Burger+“Rope+and+its+Uses”&source=bl&ots=V2bacueLD3&sig=fr0zqA7pdxnrcDC-kFHb_7isWoQ&hl=en&ei=F0NSSpbxHYy4lAf7kvTKBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

I would have preferred to find a scan of the original 1914 edition, but the 1917 version relieves me of any pressure to get a copy of the 1914 edition. The Google scan comes from the University of Michigan. Burger calls the knot the Lineman’s Rider. I do not know what a rider is.

I now recall how I did my original search. Burger’s pamphlet was published at Iowa State. The Iowa State library does not have a copy. It was reprinted in North Dakota. There is a copy of the reprint there. I blundered around with library catalogs and stumbled onto a catalog that combines the libraries of many universities. Several libraries had copies, but of only one edition. Only one library has the 1914 edition (there may be a second copy in Canada).

Ashley includes Berger [sic] in his bibliography, but only for 1927. Ashley lists publications by Drew in 1912 and 1931, but does not say which has the Lineman’s Loop. I am impressed by Day’s scholarship. Day has a much more comprehensive bibliography. He lists all the editions of Burger’s booklet and 5 editions of titles by Drew. This was all done before the Internet with single copies of different editions scattered among various university libraries. According to the bibliographies, Day’s boobkle would be the eighth or tenth work on knots in the English language.

2

Also known as the “Butterfly” and in some caving circles “Alpine Butterfly” (to distinguish
it from a somewhat like knot formed by casting a Half-hitch over a Slip-Knot’s bight).
This is a great find – the book scanned on-line!

I just checked on Wright & Magowan’s Alpine Journal 1928 treatment of the knot,
re origin(s): they write, in clarifying their calling it one of their “new” knots, …

These knots are new in the sense that no earlier record of them has been traced. But it might be rash to claim that they never have been used before.

–dl*

3

Smart and cautious formulation by Wright & Magowan:

..it might be rash to claim that they never have been used before..

Other knot authors are less humble.

4

To echo Dan’s comment, Bob, thanks for your message and the Google books link. It’s always illuminating to track down the original sources, even in trustworthy works such as Day’s. Though, practically speaking, I doubt I’ll be needing a tying method for the butterfly which requires both ends. :slight_smile:

I followed a thread like this to the 1931 Finnish scouting knot manual, Solmukirja, which is cited as the first illustration of the Constrictor. It led me to an interesting and surprisingly extensive early knot book. If only I could read suomi…

I came up empty in my later search for the Cornell “Reading Course” pamphlet Ashley refers to as the earliest source for the Farmer’s Loop, but that was a few years ago and Google and libraries in general have done a lot of work since then. I should try again.

Yes, but not all. I appreciated that in the Quibble™ GB quoted two very scholarly, though obscure compared to Ashley, knot authors. I think it’s really too bad some of the most well-researched knotting works have passed out of print (e.g. Day’s Quipus and Witches’ Knots) or are otherwise difficult or prohibitively expensive to procure (e.g.History and Science of Knots). I’ve been meaning to reply to the Quibble thread – and this comment would probably best go there… But as I’m arriving to the party a little late, the more I read of that thread the longer my potential response keeps growing in my head.

5

Hmmm, I should venture somewhere around the Beltway for what I thought was
its original presentation (another pub. re rope on the farm, IIRC).

prohibitively expensive to procure (e.g.[i]History and Science of Knots[/i]).
Unless one adds up prices of several copycat books and figures the real value ... .

As for that first image of the Constrictor, maybe “first published image” – with
HNG Bushby’s notebook drawing of 1902 preceding. … SO FAR!

–dl*

ps: Darn, there was something in Wikipedia knots I wanted to holler about,
but it’s not coming to me at the moment; – came up on some rockclimbing
chatter, but … (and might’ve been re the image).

6

True that Henry North Grant Bushby (HNGB) illustrated the Constrictor as Clifford Ashley put it on the market, but HNGB was not published. The manuscript is in the Mariner’s Museum in Newport News. OTOH there are sufficiently many published accounts of the Constrictor’s history in order not to repeat them here.

7

I don’t want to derail the Lineman’s/Butteryfly thread here, but I went back and got the actual bibliographic info for the Cornell Farmer’s loop reference and indeed these are available via Google Books now. I’ll be starting another thread Chit Chat for posting of links to old knotting works now available online.

8

I was poking around tonight and came across what appears to be the original 1914 Rope and Its Uses on Google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ju4sAAAAYAAJ&as_brr=1&pg=RA2-PA19

9

This indeed seems to be the 1914 edition. When I use the browser I go to the cover page. There is an option to download the item as a PDF. I thought I got the wrong document. When I tried downloading again, I looked more closely at the PDF. The PDF is a 245-page collection of several documents. Rope and its Uses covers pages 174-221 of the big PDF. If you have Adobe Acrobat – the program theat makes PDFs, not the reader – you can extract just the report.

10

And how does the 1914 compare with the 1917 – much of any changes?
(Of course, i.p., is the Lineman’s Rider present?)

–dl*

11

hmm, I’'ve seen this before : In the part of the world where I live I don’t have the possibility of downloading these books from Google books. Could this have something to do with copyrights ??

Oh btw “my part of the world” is The Netherlands..Europe

any ideas??

Thanks in advance
Andr

12

There was a linking problem from France, noted as:

Confirmed = same link in both case - from my provider ( European ) = no preview - using a proxy hiding my IP ( www.work-surf.info/ ) no problem to get the preview ) Pass along if it helps
So, that might explain things.

–dl*

13

I had always assumed Ashley had to be referring to Drew(1912) in the case of the lineman’s loop since Burger(1927) would still predate Drew(1931)…

However I just found a scanned copy of the 1913 version of J.M. Drew’s “Some Knots and Splices” in The Irrigation Age (Vol 28, No 7) on archive.org, which according to Day’s biblio in AKS is a “reprint” of the original 1912 article. Drew’s article starts on page 212.

In looking through it I find nothing on the lineman’s loop, so now I’m thinking Ashley must have been unaware A.A. Burger’s earlier work (assuming he simply didn’t miss it in Burger(1927) – is it there?) when he attributed the lineman’s loop to Drew. Unless the earlier version of the Drew article has something on the LL not present in the 1913 version, which seems doubtful given Day’s reprint comment, it appears Day may be correct on this. Thoughts?

14

:slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ;D

Good find, Dave!
Your surmises seem sound, but they remain just that.
Or is there any further indication that 1912 = 1913
“reprint” – to strengthen the likeliness that just the
pertinent information re the Lineman’s Loop wasn’t
somehow omitted in the latter publication? – good
enough to go on, for the moment, methinks.

Wouldn’t it be nice to find some ancient documentation
for linemen in which their knots were presented?

–dl*

15

I intentionally resurrected this old post from Bob Thrun (RIP).

Hopefully Bob is looking down and smiling :slight_smile:

Bob - Dan and I have found direct evidence linking James Meddick Drew and the Lineman's Rider (aka Butterfly).

It comes by way of Lester Griswold's book titled, 'Handicraft' first published in 1931.

NOTE: Dan Lehman has a physical copy of the original 1931 edition - there is no electronic online copy of this original edition. The online 8th edition has the same content as the 1st edition.

Link to 8th Ed: ** https://archive.org/details/bwb_Y0-CHD-015/mode/2up\*\\\\*

I found the 'Lineman's loop' (Butterfly) on page 398.

Linemans loop_Lester Griswold_HANDICRAFT_page 398_1942
Linemans loop_Lester Griswold_HANDICRAFT_page 398_1942871×655 203 KB

And here is the direct evidence that the entire section on knots was written by JM Drew:

James Drew acknowledgment
James Drew acknowledgment718×134 35.4 KB

I would remind that all of this content is from 1931.

I have also found 'Knots Useful and Ornamental' by George Shaw published 1924. The Lineman's Knot (as he names it) is on page 45.

We also have AA Burger's publication from 1914 - which also has the 'Lineman's Rider' (as he names it).

The name 'Butterfly' first arises in 1928 by Wright and Magowan in a British Mountaineering Journal.

We also have an illustration of the 'Butterfly' in Henry Bushby's personal journal (not published) - from 1902. Bushby did not assign a name to his knot. We don't know if Bushby independently discovered the 'Butterfly' - or if he learned of it from someone else. There is no reference to lineman or the telegraph industry. But, the Butterfly is illustrated in his journal.

...

Now, I've looked extensively through many Lineman technical manuals - particularly from professor Edwin Kurtz (The Linemans Handbook) going all the way back to the 1928 first edition. There is no Butterfly knot in any of Edwin Kurtz's publications.

I'm still looking... and its interesting to note that many lineman technical manuals right up to the modern era don't have the 'Butterfly' knot.

The question is: Where did AA Burger and JM Drew obtain the name 'Lineman's Rider'? Both draw a link to the lineman/telegraph industry.

And yet, prominent authors such as Professor Edwin Kurtz make no mention of it - and his an authority on linemen!

Bob, if you're still contemplating this matter - I'm still digging around - and maybe one day we'll find the direct evidence of the 'Butterfly' in the lineman industry.

16

We all should be dismayed that Bob's claim of JMDrew
1931 being listed in ABoK is wrong but went uncorrected ::
indeed, it is a striking omission which I've elsewhere remarked
at (in regard to the 1931 Handicraft chapter written by Drew
containing Ashley's beloved knot is NOT hinted at as being
Drew's work!!).
Bob must've oops for 1936, somehow!
(I.e., yes, the 1931 work is listed by Ashely,
but without a hint that (a) it has a full chapter
on knots (as beyond merely things related to
rope & cordage) and (b) JMDrew wrote it,
AND ... (c) that it presents Ashley's "Constrictor"
(as the NSE version of the Strangle).

--dl*
====*