I’m working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I’m going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together. In previous bags I’ve used sheet bends, but I’ve noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.
Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):
Easy to tie for beginners.
Secure without loading.
Able to cut the free ends short.
Flat (not bulky, and with the two lines coming out of the knot in opposite directions).
Also, the knot doesn’t need to be untied, so it’s OK if it jams.
I figure if there’s anywhere to ask, this is the place.
By “flat”, I mean something that isn’t bulky, and that has the two lines coming out from the knot in opposite directions. The netting mesh is fairly small, so the knot shouldn’t stick out. Basically I’m trying to hide the knots.
Its jamming probably won’t be a problem for disposable twine, but sometimes it’s nice to be able to adjust a knot if it isn’t in the right spot on the first try.
OK, jamming is not an issue. Further, I would think you would actually want the knot to jam if you plan on cutting the ends. I was initially going to say the Zeppelin Bend. However, because jamming is OK, the door is open to a larger world of knots. Let me think…
For a simple knot to use as the bend, what comes to mind given the particulars you’ve listed is a Waterman’s knot. It has other names such as Fisherman’s, True Lover’s and Angler’s knot. Probably more, but that is another topic.
I’ll attach a picture from the Net.
Another that could be easy is the Flemish bend. Basically two figure 8’s that are woven into each other.
Hopefully these will do. If not ask away.
Seems like a good opportunity to teach some knotting to the beginners. Welcome them to here if you would like to!
I recommend the Flemish Bend (Figure 8 Bend), the Fisherman Knot or the Water Knot (Overhand Bend). All three are relatively easy to tie, and they all jam, which I think is preferable here. If you’re going to cut the ends, you want the knot to stay put. With cut ends, if the knot became untied, you’d have to tie the knot at a different location…not good.
You said you were using sheet bends for a while, but wanted an upgrade. I would suggest a Simple Simon Under, it’s in Geoffrey Budworth’s Encyclopedia of Knots & ROPEWORK…Budworth calls this bend a very useful and underrated bend, stating it deserves more recognition and should be used on a wider scale than it is at present. It’s a step up from the Sheetbend. It’s VERY easy to tie too.
Another bend I would strongly consider is the Racking Bend, it’s based on figure 8 interweaving. But it works well with two ropes of different sizes…the smaller rope seizes the bight of a much thicker rope and allows the bight to remain seized. Budworth’s book says it can be used to join massive cable laid cordage aboard ocean going ships or used in fine twines.
This is ABoK 1031 tied as a bend. It is the lowest profile bend that I know… the crossings don’t seem to double up anywhere in the structure of the knot. It’s fairly easy to tie. (Anything is easy if you know how to do it.) It holds in about any type of line. Ends come out parallel to the standing part, etc.
Yes that will work easily for the purpose. That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7 and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.
And I was incorrect as I mis-saw the knot you posted SaltyCracker, sorry.
Thanks you for adding it as well SaltyCracker.
Now if wackymorningdj is watching he can take this same knot and do the double version of it and it should assuage Roo’s concerns.
I don’t see how Salty can find this of such small profile, as the Reef
is of course smaller, and the Water Knot (Ring Bend) & Fisherman’s
knot as small and better shaped. (It’s interesting that Ashley didn’t
see in #1031/1048 the interlocking-overhands bend Harry Asher
christened “Shakehands”, which is loaded in reverse to what’s
presented here, and thus easily untied --not wanted, though, for
the OP’s application.) Ashley’s #1406 is quite small, trimmed,
but it’s tricky to set and it’s not reassuring about jamming secure.
I will revise my recommendation above (for the Surgeon’s) to be
for the Double Harness Bend or ABOK #1421. This not only
has a small profile but it presents the ends together (there is a
version that has them opposite) which in the OP’s circumstance
is an ideal presentation for cutting off --both at once, and both
right at the nub (much easier to trim than were they exiting parallel
to the SParts)!
The Layhands site has a decent representation of it, but for easy
tying, you’ll want to skip to step#3 and look at the geometry
there and work up your method to tie one end first, then the
other, then bring the halves together (to abut each other),
which can take some bit of dexterity or technique/practice.
Pull to set & jam, and then snip the tails close to the body
.:. perfect!
Cf www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm
where #8 is the Dbl.Harness Bend, and #18Shakehands.
(Beware of the appalling bozos on-line pretending to show
a “double harness bend” in some videos --egadz. (eHow/Marinews))
It’s not quite a Fisherman Bend, but it’s close. That bend in Salty’s pics has an overlap that the Fisherman doesn’t have. Zoom into the third pic. It’s an interesting bend. I’ll have to test it out.
So far my pick of the bunch is the double harness bend. I can get it to jam pretty well, I like that it isn’t very bulky at all, and it seems relatively easy to tie. I actually found that the diagrams I was pointed to are easy to follow (without skipping to step 3 as suggested). All of these knots are much better than the sheet bends I’ve been using. You can’t beat a fisherman’s bend or water knot in terms of simplicity, but both of those felt a little bulky. I guess I’ll see what the response is if I try to teach a knot that’s a bit less common. Fortunately there will be a variety of classes happening at the same time, so if all else fails, I can just send people to the knot class.
Thanks to everyone.
It’s not quite a Fisherman Bend, but it’s close. That bend in Salty’s pics has an overlap that the Fisherman doesn’t have. Zoom into the third pic. It’s an interesting bend. I’ll have to test it out.
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Sorry knot4u… I don’t have this quote thing down yet.
Thanks for your replies. If anything the knot in replies 11 & 12 is similar to, but not the same, as Harry Asher’s Shake Hands, as shown in Budworth “Encyclopedia” book. It also resembles Vice Versa. It isn’t a complicated knot to tie but certainly less straight-forward than some of the others in this topic. It is very obscure in that the only place I’ve ever seen it is as a loop knot in ABoK #1031 and, tied in the bight, #1048. And, I’ve never seen anyone else use it as a bend.
As stated in another topic, several years back I switched to using this on the Kevlar line on speargun line-shafts. It holds better in springy & slippery material than certainly the bowline but also many other knots as well. I prefer it over the Zeppelin, Hunters, and some of the other interlocking overhand knots since the ends do not come out of the knot at right angles. Also, by being a long knot, load is distributed through the knot improving its breaking strength. Only breaks that I’ve experienced have been at the attachment point (twice) of the line & never at the knot.
Give it a try in working conditions and then give some feed back. Let me know if it would be worthwhile & I’ll start this in its own topic.
As always… be sure for yourself of a knot before you use it for real. Since this is obscure it hasn’t had the testing of some of the more main-stream knots.
Wackmorningdj, I think that if you have chosen the Double Harness bend, it would be better to make just an additional small step…Re-tuck this bend, and have a safer (1), really nice looking bend, with collars around two rope diameters and standing end/tails pair of the same rope adjacent and parallel to the bend axis. No comparison with the parent bend !
“safer” theoretically, as the tails are secured once more - in relation to the parent bend- as they pass through the collar loops.
