Hi there, I’m trying to figure out what knot would be the most ideal for my situation. I’m an avid four wheeler and I’m involved in Search and rescue in our county here. I guess I should start with this question. I’m not 100% sure what type of rope I should order for pulling but I will need two kinds, one that stretches and one that does NOT.
The rope will be exposed to chafing, rocks, mud, sand, dust, sunlight, water and probably will be run over a few times too.
The two rope types would be stretchy and then one that does not stretch.
Next question I’m sure atleast some of you can help me with is, what kind of loop knot would be the most ideal for the two situations???
For the non stretchy rope i was stuck between the alpine butterfly or the double dragon. I honestly love both in the simplicity of tying and the ease of untying them, but I’ve never seen a real statistical difference in strength. Also sometimes I will usea single loop or a double loop to take advantage of multiple recovery points (I.e. clevis shackles or D-rings welded to bumpers) how would this effect the knots strength?
I have to admit that I’m not quite sure what you’re asking for regarding the stretchy versus non-stretchy rope. I’ll leave that aside.
No rope type is indestructable. They will all have to be taken care of, inspected regularly, and occasionally replaced. I like nylon for its strength, handling, shock absorption, knot tolerance regarding strength, and a number of other factors.
The Butterfly Loop is a good choice for a midline loop, and for towing, I’d also look at the Span Loop.
As I’ve stated a number a times in the Forum before, I don’t see much use for the Double Dragon Loop and would not promote it. It can jam under certain loadings as a midline loop, and it does not have a good method of tying around or through an object as a good end loop should.
For a secure end loop, you might look at a Water Bowline or a Zeppelin Loop, depending on your abilities:
You mentioned towing at two anchor points. Here’s where a midline like the the Butterfly Loop or Span Loop may be employed as a self-equalizing system instead of learning a separate sliding double loop knot. First, you tie your Butterfly Loop a reasonable distance from the vehicle. Then run the free end of the rope through the first D-ring, then back though the Butterfly Loop, then through the second D-ring, and then finish by attaching a Bowline (or some end loop) to the Butterfly Loop.
I doubt short-term towing applications demand a high degree of security in your knots.
I’m wondering if a kinetic yanker type nylon rope would be acceptable or even usable in my situation in reguards to recovering 6,600+ lb vehicles stuck in mud or sand to the frame automatically making them much heavier then they originally were. For the recovery rope/strap to be effective it has to stretch to send kinetic energy to the stuck vehicle in a term “snatching” it from the mud or sand. I’m wondering if it would even be possible to tie a loop knot at each end without having to go to a rope thats maybe rated for 70-80k lbs and will probably end up not stretching at all.. in that case it would become a tow rope not a recovery rope.
I was asking for a suggestion on the rope to be used.
“You mentioned towing at two anchor points. Here’s where a midline like the the Butterfly Loop or Span Loop may be employed as a self-equalizing system instead of learning a separate sliding double loop knot. First, you tie your Butterfly Loop a reasonable distance from the vehicle. Then run the free end of the rope through the first D-ring, then back though the Butterfly Loop, then through the second D-ring, and then finish by attaching a Bowline (or some end loop) to the Butterfly Loop.”
Also why would you prefer the water bowline or zepplin loop vs. the butteryfly loop?
Also are you saying that a double loop knot would be not as strong as the method you suggested?
" doubt short-term towing applications demand a high degree of security in your knots."
One of the problems with “yanking” a vehicle with stiff rope is that it is difficult to guage how much force that impact is generating. You could easily damage the vehichle or break something off creating a deadly projectile.
Regarding security, one would require security in a situation where the rope sees a lot of repetitive movement or wiggling that would cause the rope to loosen and slowly untie, for example. When towing for a short period of time, this just doesn’t happen.
I’m not commenting on the strength of a double loop knot. If you can find an equalizing double loop knot that you find is easy to thread through D-rings and is easy to remember, go for it. But I’ve already described a way to do it with knots you already know.
I would choose a end loop over a Butterfly Loop in certain situations when you need to thread the rope around or through an object before closing the loop. The Butterfly Loop does not have a good method of tying this way. It is meant to be a midline loop or loop on the bight. Also, the Butterfly Loop may not be as easy to untie as the two end loops listed.
I don’t fully understand your first paragraph regarding rope making a vehichle “heavier”, and kinetic energy transfer. I think it would be preferable to apply force slowly with a winch or some other means of mechanical advantage. Slow pulling allows the power of the stuck vehicle to be used to help. Slow pulling also allows mud time to move out of the way so that a lower, thus safer, pulling force is required. Slow pulling will also make it easier to see if other debris is preventing movement.
what I meant was: the vehicle will seem to be heavier since it would be stuck in mud or sand so a normal “recovery strap” would need to be rated to 33k lbs not 6k lbs (these have rethreaded loops put into them not knots). But once you start getting over 40k lbs on a rope the “stretchyness” also the “yanking” ability will become less and the rope will be much more stiff.
“One of the problems with “yanking” a vehicle with stiff rope is that it is difficult to guage how much force that impact is generating.”
thats exactly my dilemma, if I use a nylon rope rated for 33k lbs and tie a knot that has a 60% strength rating, well there goes the rope when I have to “yank” someone heavily stuck out of a mud hole. So I guess tying a knot into a strechy nylon rope will not do so then it becomes just a “tow” rope. Anyhow what recommendations could anyone make in reguards to a high tensile strength rope? preferably around 60-70k lb?
I agree with you on the winch completely, but the problem there is #1 a bumper custom or not would cost over 1,500 to have built or ordered pre made. #2 a 12k lb winch is about 1,500-3,000 as well. And I just don’t have that kind of money yet. Ontop of it, winches can break and overheat, also they are a pain to put on the rear receiver of a vehicle when your in a situation where you cannot turn around to winch someone foreward, hence the need for a strap as a backup means of recovery, or as the only means of recovery. In the mean time an acceptable way of unsticking a vehicle is “yanking” it with a stretchable rope/strap which is what I planned to do, but seeing the information I have now I dont think it’s feasable.
“I’m not commenting on the strength of a double loop knot. If you can find an equalizing double loop knot that you find is easy to thread through D-rings and is easy to remember, go for it. But I’ve already described a way to do it with knots you already know.”
I understand exactly what your saying and I will probably do that instead, I was just asking possibly how much stronger your method is incomparison to just tying a double loop knot. I believe I will go with your method over the DLK anyhow, but I’d prefer to not have to tie and untie the knot every time in the rope when I would rather just leave it in and attach D-rings to the end.
Thank you for your explination of security on the knot.
Block and tackle can be had for a reasonable price. I’d still have a thick rope around in case you need to attach it to the block and tackle to reach a longer distance.
Hi Grady,
With that callsign I am assuming your are in the USA.
So - my suggestion is that you do some more research into towing and recovery ropes that already exist on the market - they are certainly available here in the UK.
For your stretch rope I would go for a Polyamide (Nylon) multiplait because it has no cover and can therefore be inspected easily for weaknesses etc - it can also be washed.
For your non stretch rope - on the inexpensive side you could use pre-stretched poyester or the more expensive Spectra/Dyneema ropes with a polyester cover.
I would certainly not use any knots - all these ropes splice easily and retain at least 95% of their strength in doing so.
Use a hard eye splice with a Nylon thimble then attach that the the vehicles with a Soft Shackle (that way you do not have metal shackles to fly around if they break!) see the LIROS XTR web site… http://www.liros.com/artikelliste.aspx - As you will see they are rated up to 10 tons - not difficult to make either!
73’S
Gordon
ex G3SJC
Yes I am in the US, central coast california in monterey bay.
I actually have two recovery ropes labeled “kinetic yanker ropes” they’re a 1" x 30’ nylon rope. I was only posting here to look for a backup option to the main, never hurts to have a plan B when things go wrong. In reguards to splicing, I’m not much for intricate work to be brutally honest, is there any way to have it done to the rope or send it off to someone if you will… to have it spliced?
The D rings on my end are rated to be about 20 tons which covers about 7k lbs more then the rope is supposed to hold. I would probably end up looping the strap or rope around the other vehicle, I never trust their “recovery points” to put a shackle on their side.
I thank you for the rope suggestions, this will save me a lot of time in decisions & research.
