membership numbers and zhongguojie.org

General Discussion
1

In an article (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/culture/2011-11/04/content_14039209.htm) I found and posted to my google+ stream (http://plus.google.com/107945476213341647743) there were a number of interesting points including the fact that Chinese knotwork was sent up into space to live on the Chinese space station that they’re building (http://english.cri.cn/7146/2011/11/01/2361s665313.htm), and that there is work afoot to get Chinese Knotting designated as a World Intangible Cultural Heritage.

But the factoid that most caught my eye was the claim that http://www.zhongguojie.org/ has 170,000 members. Even if that number is off by one or even two orders of magnitude, that’s still significantly more than the entire guild membership, if I recall correctly.

Alas for the claim that they have European and American members, it seems that they are not participating in English. :cry: Google Translate and I will have to probe around the site slowly and painfully for the good bits and report back when I find them. 8) That is, unless someone who is not illiterate in Chinese cares to help (Europa? ;D

2

The IGKT has around 1,100 members and has remained static for some time. I just had a quick look at the site and used Google to translate a couple of pages to English which seemed to work OK (I use Google Chrome as my browser which may help). It is certainly colourful and seems to have some interesting tutorials - I’ll have another look when I have more time. Our site is certainly pretty dull by comparison. That said there are an awful lot of Chinese speakers albeit the majority in China.

Barry

3

I think the disparity is somewhat reflective on the nature that knotting, both practical and decorative, plays in culture from both ends of the world. I’m no expert, but from what I’ve experienced in life, and in read from various postings (mostly members of this board and other boards like KHWW) knotting does not hold the same significance in the West. Not saying that it is significant, just a different significance.

This is my observation, so if I’m way off base, I apollogize.

Western knotting seems to be mostly practical by nature, decorative by extension. Knots do work first, look pretty second. What has been done to be decorative, seems to have evolved almost more to pass time than to be pretty. Most knots that the average person learns are knots used for work, for ‘doing’ something. Shoelaces, corsetting, wrapping presents, securing bundles, etc. On average, the most ‘decorative’ knot the average person knows, is tying ribbons in a bow… again, tying their shoelaces. Essentially, our knotting is done as a tool that can be left alone, tied, and then ignore, not even looked at for contemplation. Another factor that I remember well from my childhood is that when children get into string and knotting, they’re typically ‘in trouble’. Unless they have some local group, like a scouting, they’re usually not taught to explore knotting for what it’s worth. Decorative knotting seems to usually come after the practical uses, if at all. Celtic knotwork on objects, like a cross for instance; the cross wasn’t made for the knotwork, the knotwork was made for the cross. Decorative knots on knit/cross-stitch clothing and items, again exists so that something looks pretty.

By comparisson, it seems that in the East, knotting has not only a practical application, but a spiritual connection. Knots for luck, knots for prosperity, knots honoring ancestors, knots for meditation. Eastern knots seem to be, no pun intended, interwoven with daily life on a very active level. Give a farmer a new hoe to work his lands, and you’ve insulted his ability to provide for himself and his family. Give a homeless beggar a decorative bellpull with a simple knot before the tassel, and you’ve practically called him a king! (yeah, okay, maybe a bit of an exageration) I think it’s this cultural intigration that probably is the reason why they’re numbers are so high in comparission.

4

Rrok,

Your observations seem right on to me. Western culture has associated decorative knot-work with pagan acts, Celtic mystery and some very little work of Turk’s Head decoration. I am lucky to be leading a small troupe of decorative knot-tying children in a middle school (ages 10 through 13) learn how to tie decorative knots, using basic structures like half-hitches, overhand knots and weaving (read ‘over-under’ styles) in creating decorative pieces with color and ease of remembering. I will be writing an article in an upcoming issue of Knotting Matters, Spring issue, about the process, the learning and the syllabus. I am doing this with my friend and co-teacher Jimmy Williams to ensure that decorative knotting has one more toe-hold in a world of instant.

As for spiritual connections - many people I have met and worked with in the West seem to think that “spiritual” means “religious” and they almost automatically compartmentalize the acts associated with the practice into “religious” or “agnostic/atheist” barrels of storage in their minds, taking their particular interpretation in their direction instead of considering a spiritual journey. Maybe we Westerners need to interpret our own language …?

SR

5

Well I also think another part of it is, unless you in an industry like trucking or construction, or something nautical related, the moment you say you’re into tying rope, people jump to the conclusion that your using it for purposes generally considered taboo. I can’t count the number of times I’ve goofed around with rope and someone has admired it, and then half of them move almost a foot away when I say I’m into ropework/knotwork. I say half because I’m currently living in Tampa, FL which is like the freak (including myself) capital of the eastern seaboard, so the ones that don’t move away typically move closer. It’s kind of sad that there’s such an attitude regarding that usage because I’ve met plenty of folks (FL is something of a magnet it seems) who passionate and curious about rope/knots but feel they have to ‘keep to the shadows’ with their interest. It seems like everytime I’m talking with someone and mention the IGKT or books by some of the folks associated with the guild, their faces light up like a 5-year old the first time they pass through the admission gates at Disneyworld.

6

Part of it is that much of Asia is what I personally refer to as a “package culture”. Everything is wrapped and packaged so precisely. When I visited Taiwan in the 80’s every book had a plastic jacket. Things are a bit more eco-friendly these days, but that idea is still there. Of course, before the advent of plastic, things were wrapped in cloth, and those cloth packages were tied. There was a lot of tying and untying. Sometimes of the cloth itself, but if it was an object that was used often or was deemed a bit more important/precious, then a custom cloth container and cord was usually involved. Japanese tea bags (for the storage of your tea leaves, not for brewing with) for the more well off was a whole thing involving silk brocade, kumihimo cords and elaborate knots (I have 3-4 books on that topic alone).

The art/craft line is very different in Asia as well as their integration into daily life. As previously noted, decorative knotting is Art in Asia. It is exhibited in museums and and the teachers greatly respected. Both Taiwan and Korea have recognized certain knot teachers as Living National Treasures. This is probably one element why practitioners and hobbyists alike are not regarded as, say, that fringe weirdo that does macrame.

On the non-decorative side of things, construction in China still happens with bamboo scaffolds knotted together with nylon straps http://www.bd.gov.hk/english/documents/code/GDCBS.pdf.

Adding a little blur to the decorative/practical divide, see the modern sake barrel
http://www.moippai.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/sake-barrel.jpg

Which for some reason reminds me of this bit of knotted frippery I came across the other day http://www.dealextreme.com/p/cool-porcelain-dx-logo-style-usb-2-0-flash-drive-white-red-8gb-58498

But the constant ambient contact with knotted objects from mizuhiki cards to lucky/commemorative knot hangings to the tassels on vintage weaponry not to mention construction scaffolding and packages tied with twine is more pervasive in the East vs the West.