mistakes in Knot Books

first of all…are these really books at all? with so many mistakes?

I mentioned (complained) in a couple of posts of mine in the past about a few mistakes made in some present day books.
Geoffrey Budworth and Mario Bignon w/ Guido Regazzoni, but I then remembered today about a couple of members such as SquareRigor, etc. here in this forum mentioning that they also made (intentional) mistakes in their books.

From what I understand about the ABOK is that the Original Edition contained many mistakes.
Why revise it at all? If mistakes are intentional…

Seth

I know that several writers send treir publisher the list with mistakes before publishing, and the publishers ignored them.
In other cases the publishers made more mistakes while sorting out the ones pointed out.

Most writers will not make mistakes on purpose, but they often deal with a publisher, illustrator and often translators who each add mistakes, not on purpose, I am sure.

Why revise? To make the books as good as can be. To try to get the books without errors.

Willeke (who tries to get all her published work without mistakes, online and in print.)

Perhaps as a way to "Promote the art, craft and science of knotting, "
the IGKT could maintain a list of Errata for books, which owners/readers
could consult as appropriate. Even if that didn’t lead to books being revised,
it might help reduce the frequency with which errors are replicated.

–dl*

Dan,
I think you have just hit on an EXCELLENT IDEA!!! I would sure like to see something like a errata list easily accessible via the net.

The error I have seen a few times is the mis-naming of the ‘Turle Knot’ as the ‘Turtle Knot’.
It does seem to be confined to less erudite books, little craft guides, that kind of thing.

Great idea! I can ask Mel to create an additional page called “Knot Book Errata”, and if you send me the errors you find I could then put the information onto the page. The information should consist of:
Book Title:
Author:
Publisher:
Publ. Date:
Page No and/or Knot No:
Error:
Possible Correction:

Before I get in touch with Mel does anyone have any further ideas on what needs to be included?

Lesley
WebAdmin

My vote for the worst mistake occurs in the knot sections of many climbing books. The name “lark’s foot hitch” can be traced back to a typo in Bill March’s book, Modern Rope Techniques. I even have a book, originally in French, where “tete d’alouette” got translated as “lark’s foot”.

Just a note of caution - just how do we define “error” or even “mistake”? If this is someone’s idea of an alternate name for a knot, is that an error? If someone preferred to have the illustration in a different color or a different orientation (Dan, this appears to have been one of your pet peeves), is that an error? If the knot is not shown drawn up, is that an error? You get the idea, I’m sure - let’s just be careful about the kettle calling the pot black! I feel sure that if you want to stick your neck out, someone else will be only too willing to cut it off. Maybe a less inflammatory label like “Potential error” or something else like that? Lesley, a note for you - the publication date does not always include the edition and later editions sometimes have corrections included - you may want to include the edition also…

SR

Indeed! In the case of names, one can at least give a reasoned reply, with the
rationale that from best researched understanding the name associated with the
knot is “Original_Name” and so the author’s “Other_Name” stands in contrast,
and perhaps without indication of a reason for using it. There are some degrees to
this issue of naming: pretty apparent mistake (and e.g., misspelling); sound-alike
name, apparently confused for the real one; some novel name w/o acknowledgement
of difference or rationale; … <?> . There are localized names for things, and there
is a fair argument that first-known source might (a) itself be mistaken or (b) not really
be first (we just haven’t yet found the original).
But spellings e.g. of knots named for “inventors” such as ‘Bachman’, ‘prussic’, ‘Headon’,
& ‘Muenter’ can be decided as wrong, since those folks were real and their names known.

And then there might be cases such as the “Irish Bowline”: a name wished upon a knot
by its inventer, and with the speed of the Net, KM’s presentation, and at least one surfacing
in a book (Budworth, IIRC), voila, a new knot? --or not. That is a lame basis for a knot and
a name, in my judgement.

If someone preferred to have the illustration in a different color ...
Huh? I'm not aware of [i]color[/i] being an important attribute of knots--example(s)? (If the text refers to one colored knot and should state another color, that's a goof in reference.)
... or a different orientation (Dan, this appears to have been one of your pet peeves), is that an error?
If it peeves me, it must be! >:(

But, yeah, this is likely an aspect to be resistant to calling an “error”. But let’s consider
the cases and see. In the case of presenting a traced knot such as the Fig.8 bend,
if the loading is not specified in any way (even by appearance of end/SPart distinction),
we can call that an error–since the knot indeed has such distinctions. As to which should
be what, no, that’s another matter (unless my distinction “strong form” etc. were being
referenced but mistaken, then that mistake could be cited as such). Another case:
if the Cowboy Bowline is shown as the regular one, we could remark that either the
name or the image is wrong–that they don’t match. Hmmm, a real-life case: the
revision to On Rope flipped some images upside-down and made the almost
orientation-indifferent text match (only had to change a word or two); here because the
book is consistent (with itself), the error is debatable; but in reference to both the original
book, and to the (mis)workings of the hitch, one can cite the revision as being in error.

If the knot is not shown drawn up, is that an error?
Well, sometimes the image should be faulted as poor: there are some books that show the Timber Hitch as a knot with very tight/close [i]dogging[/i]/wrapping of the end such that in practice there's a fair chance that most of the wraps would be pulled clear of the hitched object and the knot spill (or in any case be dependent upon just the last tuck)--that should be faulted. (Arborists in fact have had the odd case of a properly tied Timber h. spilling on a dropped load--"properly" in terms of general form, but apparently a wrap or two too few!) And I've seen cases where the image was said to be of a dressed & set knot, and it wasn't--one case being the Carrick bend in its lattice form (usual way it's shown for tying), with the "drawn up" image being the SAME form but without visible space between the strands!! --right.
Maybe a less inflammatory label like "Potential error" or something else like that?
Oh, no: be accurate--and careful, as you state. And "error" is not the only lable available, as indicated above: there might be simple objective remarks about frequency and so on, noting something as uncommon. --and making no comment, often.

–dl*

[4-07 edit: ‘name of image’ => ‘name or image’]

Thanks!

A very helpful and well-seasoned response Dan, for which I thank you, and one with which I agree. As to color (colour for the Brits) the illustrations and particularly photographs in knot books sometimes are clearly (or rather, unclearly) not able to be distinguished as to over or under and they take a practised eye to discern - is that an error and, if so, of what type is that error? There may be more than one way of skinning the cat!

Where do we go from here? Do we put together a list of books/publications or do we just pitch in at random? Maybe a poll? Nah, too indecisive and not enough participants! I prefer to start with a list of books arranged alphabetically by author’s last name and go on from there - anyone care to start with Costantino, 1st edition?

SR

I am more than willing to submit a list of errors in my books (UK/USA/Canada English versions only)

Gordon

One could cite that as a poor graphical presentation (e.g, I just had trouble making out
the workings of a 3-strand eye splice because of a poorly made drawing). Using climbing
rope with patterned mantle is often guilty of this failing; and, yes, some colors or perhaps
we should (advised by photo pros!?) fault lighting/development render just the problem
you cite. (OTOH, there are some cases where a 3-strand rope has been contrived of
3 differently colored cords so as to highlight each strand’s course in the multi-strand knot.)

I prefer to start with a list of books arranged alphabetically by author's last name and go on from there - anyone care to start with Costantino, 1st edition?
Ah, interesting notion of lexical ordering, stepping over, what, 50% of the (recently) published b-b-b-B-B-B-books?! ::)

Or, one could begin w/first-offered, which seems to be “Perry”, and what succeeds that? :wink:

Or, given some formula for making the Errata at all, just let contributors contribute what they
have at hand. Why set any order, vs. all at once (as they can come)?

–dl*

Lets handle the books as we have them, but list them alphabetical, just to be able to find them back.
But Constantino is a book we should handle of get banned.

Willeke

Not sure who/what is to get banned–us, for not acting; or the book, for mistakes!?
(I wonder how, e.g., the USA Consumer Product Safety Commission would treat bad knots information?)

I recall seeing the (mis)spelling ‘Constantino’ on a book, but later ‘Costantino’–loss of 3rd letter “n”!?
Amazon lists three books with the latter name, and also the first one with the former name. (Lindsey,
does this count as an error?)

Below are comments I made to Amazon.com in 2001, which I’m happy to see given the “Helpful” nod;
there is now one glowing one of (all) 5 stars, to give an overall mediocre rating. --as though nothing
I said made sense to the 2006 reviewer. I can see my comments as good fodder/exercise for this
making-Errata endeavor, as they point to many and differing “errors”, and should meet with some
question & challenge, in part (I see some things I’m re-thinking, and some I forget the exact point
of–certainly didn’t buy the book and might not have it readily available, now). I see that I wasn’t
timid about my opinions! So, some raw input to be cooked into finer, edible Errata. (-:

[b]Amazon.com review[/b] 20 of 22 people found the following review helpful: [ 1 star (lowest rating possible)] ANOTHER BAD KNOTS BOOK, November 15, 2001

Reviewer: Dan Lehman (Falls Church, Virginia United States)

As I commented in my review of an even worse knots book (viz., Great Knots… by D. Lewis),
“In short, this book seems to have been hastily prepared by an uniformed author, without regard for
standards of care in advice or courtesy in acknowledging sources (there are no acknowledgements,
and no info re author, such as credentials).”
(Nevertheless, both books’ publishers give some sort of
(…) disclaimer to the effect that “every effort has been made to ensure that the book is accurate”–…)
While not quite so error-laden as the Lewis book, this one similarly contains no real advice on the use of knots,
and some of its photographs are of such fuzzy rope/twine that one can’t readily discern the parts of a knot!

Here is a sample of the book’s numerous errors:

p30, Fireman’s Coil: shows a supposed means to tying off a coil that won’t hold;

p34 West Co. Whipping: shows the whipping running off the end of the rope, like a night cap;

p49 Slipped Fig.8 stopper: image 4 distorts the fig.8, and 5 is hard to discern;

p53 Englishman’s Loop: the SPart’s overhand knot is misoriented, and the end’s overhand knot is wrong-handed;
[Here I might take issue w/myself, as this LK is usually shown w/opp.-handed Oh.s–though a concordant form CAN
be tied in the bight, too! --if this is what is cited, and not something else.
]

p54 Perfection Loop: image 2 conflicts with image 1, and the final image is ambiguous re which end is loaded;

p56 Bowline: says of this knot that is won’t “slip, loosen, or jam”, which is not true–it can do all of those
the last in capsizing, as seen in some mooring hawsers), and is why the SAR, caving, & climbing communities
have favored a Fig.8 loop;

p58 Double Bowline: makes the incredible claim “…some 70% stronger … than the ordinary bowline”–nonsense–,
[Actually, a clumsy plagiarism from a Budworth assertion] and the orientation of the doubled turns is confused,
with the tied knot’s image showing a sort of midshipman’s knot form;

p60 Triple Bowline: it asserts that this knot is “indispensible” for learning to climb–hardly the case–, and additionally
adds the nonsensical adivce “if one of the [SParts] is shorter than the other, for security, tie it to its partner …”(!!);

p63 Water Bowline: it shows the 2 half-hitch turns of this knot close together, as a clove hitch (they should be spaced),
and claims that “when wet it’s less liable to jam”, which should surprise one having read on p.56 that a bowline can’t jam(!);
[We’ll find this assertion in other books, of course–Maria isn’t original, after all.]

p65 Bowline on a Bight: the knot is mistied, with the SPart running straight through the rest of the structure
(hence, this would effect a noose)…

p68-9 Portugese Bowline: the image shows the inter-loop/shared part lying outside vs. within the SPart’s half-hitch turn;

p71 Frost Knot: copying text from Lewis copied from Budworth, it wrongly asserts that this knot is nothing more
than “a simple overhand loop that is tied in webbing instead of cordage”–bull: that would be more or less apt
for an overhand tape loop, but the Frost knot (loop) is a means to tie jointly both a loop & bend, joining the ends
of the tape (typically forming an etrier) in forming the small top loop;

p79 Bowstring Knot: the entry point of the end into the overhand part differs between images 3 & 4, with both
being at diff. parts of the spine, yet image 6 shows it through the belly of the overhand, and as she equates
this to the Honda loop, all of the entries are from the wrong side, for that;

p80 Double Fig.8 loop: says “it stays tied because there are no ends to work loose”, but this isn’t quite the case,
and it otherwise applies equally to a great many other knots;

p86 Midshipman’s Hitch: says “when stopped or seized, this is one of the strongest slide and grip knots”,
which, firstly I doubt has any real evidence to support it, and secondly if the knot is seized, it’s no longer sliding;
[She echos Ashley #1027 here.]

p109 Grief Knot: I’ve never heard of this, and hope not to, again as it is worthless; the images here are royally
fouled and the final shows one of the two ropes passing straight through the tangle of the other(!);

p131 Round Turn & 2 Half Hitches: wrongly shows a RT and larks head;

p141 Cow Hitch w/Toggle: images 3 & 4 show a toggle inserted absolutely pointlessly
–the point SHOULD be to show the knot in the bight, w/toggle effecting the locking–;

p165 Timber Hitch: amazingly, this knot is grossly mis-tied, with all of the end’s wraps that should be
securing it against the tied-to object being instead loose between object and SPart(! no other author
I’m aware of has botched this simple knot); [Ah, I think that indeed such images are elsewhere.]

p180-1 “Double Overhand Bend”: firstly, the name is wrong (which rightly denotes either the grapevine/dbl.fisherman’s
bend or a beefed-up ring bend), and the final image of tied knot is grossly misformed; moreover, she has copied
Ashley’s text for the thumb knot, the side-oriented overhand bend (in which the ends lie together, opposite SParts),
in saying this knot was used to tie up “ham, bacon, & bananas”;

p183 Carrick Bend: maybe she was confused by the bad photo in the later (not earlier!) Jarman book,
but the final image is mis-formed, with one half of the knot collapsed but not the other (also likely a result
of her using ropes of differing flexibility);

193 (Asher’s) Seizing Bend: wrongly shows the end being tied to the SPart with an overhand vs. being tied into a bowline;

197 (Smith)Hunter’s Bend: image 8 (final) is hopelessly wrong (in part from her trying to follow the ridiculous
tying method given for this in Ashley’s amended edition); [IMHO (-: ]

198 Zeppelin Bend: she shows her ignorance of Hunter’s bend by saying of Z. that it differs
in having ends perpendicular vs. alongside SParts–no, both are alike & perpendicular;

200 Fisherman’s bend: wrongly shows the overhand part in the gold rope misoriented.

Enough?
Damn, yes, enough of such books (…)