Need assistance with these Eye knots (History)

These are just some of the images I would like to include in the next update of the ‘Bowlines and other selected Eye knots’ paper (working title only).

I never had the time previously to showcase the ingenious structures created by Mr Alan Lee - so that is one of my big priorities - to try to capture some of the creations and to include well considered theoretical analysis.

I intend to showcase each knot and then to show the key ‘nipping structure’ in exploded view immediately to its side. There will be ‘front’ and ‘rear’ views.

Key terminology will need to sorted out - and I will be seeking universal agreement from members of the this forum (eg ‘nipping turn’ / ‘nipping structure’, loop/eye, ‘collar+capstan structure’ etc etc).

Its going to be a very detailed study of Bowlines and selected Eye knots (not every eye knot - just those structures that are of significant interest/value and to compare these structures to the Bowline structure).

I also want to include high quality photos and exploded views showing the operation of the ‘Lehman 8’. Strangely, I am having difficulty finding any high quality images of the Lehman 8 - can anyone provide me with images?? - And also Dan had some variants to the Lehman 8 of which I also need photos/drawings. I think the Lehman 8 is worthy of show casing in the Bowlines/Eye knots paper.

Mark G


Bowline_Alan-Lee_Variant_Rear.JPG

Hi All,
This Lee s Pretzel loop and EyeKnot_AlanLee-Xarax_inspired_Zeppelin have the similar look, I create it previously see this link
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4075.msg24781#msg24781
I believe this Lee s Pretzel loop more secure then EyeKnot_AlanLee-Xarax_inspired_Zeppelin. I will test it when I have chance.

     Mark, no sure if this loop have any good for what you trying do.

         謝謝  alan lee.

There are many of the YoBowl, and just alter
that tying where, if the tail has been taken clockwise
over the eye leg and … out through the collar,
one changes by going anti-clockwise & under … ,
to go out the collar. It is that simple. (And the
“under” vice “over” is not really a 2nd thing to
remember, but merely a stated consequence
of going around in the opposite direction.)

–dl*

To my view, NO overhand-knot-based bend ( or, for that matter, fig.8-knot-based bend ) turned into an eyeknot should be compared to the bowline, ever !
The links of (most) such bends “work” differently than the “nipping structure” of the bowline ( although they may work in the same way the “collar structure” of the bowline works ). Why ? Because, in a link of such a bend, we want to immobilise the penetrating line of the other link as much as we can, WITHOUT the help of a collar, and for that we use links ( overhand knots or fig.8 knots ) that are as tightly “closed” around themselves as possible. In the bowline, the “nipping structure” has only to immobilize the second leg of the collar, not the first one. When the continuation of the returning eyeleg has made its U-turn around the Standing Part, the portion of the tensile forces which is able to reach to the second collar has already been reduced a lot, so the burden of immobilizing is also reduced. In the bowline, we do not need nipping structures as tightly closed around themselves as the overhand knot or the fig.8 knot - moreover, we do not want suck knots, because we want our eyeknot to be as easily untiable as possible.
Again, I will repeat that I am talking about the easiness of untiability after HEAVY loading - and I can not tell if in some applications ( rescue or climbing, for example ), such loadings happen. In boating and sailing, they do, very often, and that is why seamen use their “king of knots”, the bowline.
It is a very simple thing to turn any of the existing bends into an eyeknot ! However, it is a very difficult thing to find a bend that, when turned into a loop, will be easily untiable, and will be PET.
If one wants to tie and try the bends which are NOT based on overhand knots of on fig.8 knots, and so they will still have chances to be easily untiable even after really heavy loading, he can tie all the 25 A bends of Miles, and turn them to the 100 corresponding PET eyeknots. ( And tells me if he finds among them a TIB eyeknot that I had missed… :slight_smile: )

[ The members of “Climbers and Co.” company are kindly requested to skip the next/last paragraph - too much “keystroking” for their taste, and not enough brainstorming, to regenerate asphyxiated brain cells, I am afraid )
Personally, I am interested only in bowline-like eyeknots that are also TIB, for many reasons. If a knot tyer does not understand/feel the versatility and the conceptual beauty of a knot that can do anything another knot does, but it is also TIB, I can not help him, I am afraid : he will miss the practical advantage of a most useful and the mental pleasure of a most enjoyable aspect of knotting, but I guess he will manage to live without it. :slight_smile: I am only interested in knotting for nothing - if by this “nothing” we mean a particular application, a “purpose”, such as money-making, rope-joining, tie and shoelaces tying, etc. I am interested in knotting for the pure joy of being able to “knot” a rope into a “knot”, by tying it in-the-bight, and which knot, although it will remain topologically equivalent to the unknot, i.e., to the straight, unknotted line, will nevertheless be stable and secure - and this joy can not be overestimated.]

And apparently we cannot help you understand anything. ;D ;D

I do no say that the bends with links topologically equivalent to the unknot ( the “A” bends, of Miles ) are all easy to untie after heavy loading, of course. Moreover, many of those bends which, as bends, ARE easy to untie, when they will be turned into loops ( = when they will be loaded by three ends ), WILL become difficult to untie. I have in front of me an Axis knot ( M. A 22, ABoK#804 ), and I pull its ends, the one after the other : it becomes a rock-solid, compact conglomeration of interweaved segments of rope, which can not be untied at all ! :slight_smile: To untie a knot, we have to be able to grab a tip of a bight and pull it out, or push an end inwards and 'feed" the nub with more material in order to loosen it, etc. If the knot does not allow us to do such things, it can not be untied, even if it is not “closed” around itself very tightly, as an interlocked overhand-knot-based or a fig.8 knot-based bend, and their corresponding loops, are… In other words, regarding how easy a knot can be untied, to have links topologically equivalent to the unknot ( i.e., to be PET-2 ), is a necessary, but not sufficient condition.

Realize that with the fig.8 there is an orientation
–one might call it the “mid-flype state”-- in which the
knot resembles interlocked turNips (as does a clove h.,
and more so like the constrictor in the noose hitch said
to “kill” a buntline). In this form, there are two seeming
turNips to reeve the tail through.

–dl*

True - but I am trying to find out a general rule of thumb - and I believe that the rule “Beware of overhand knots and [i]fig.8 knots” serves this purpose pretty well.
The Clove- and the Constrictor-based bowlines, especially in their “reversed” orientations, can become difficult to untie.
Now, if Alan Lee comes out with an eyeknot which does use such “closed” knots, in the Standing Part after ( or even before ) the eye, but remains easy to untie after really heavy loading, I will not dismiss it beforehand ! However, with heavy loading I mean a great portion of the MBS of the line, NOT its infamous “suggested”/“working” load ( which may be the 1/20th of that…)

Hi Alan,

Can you please check and confirm these knot photos are correct?

They will be included in the ‘Bowlines and other selected Eye Knots’ paper.

The are wonderful creations.

I plan to test them (for security and stability and verifiability - not break strength).

Thanks,

Mark


Alan-Lee_Pretzl_EyeKnot_A.JPG

I remembered yet another way to interweave a fig.8 knot tied on the Standing Part after the eye ( as “collar structure” ), which may prevent it from closing too tightly around itself, and become difficult to untie. Its two sides may be pulled apart by two unlinked nipping loops tied on the Standing Part before the eye ( as “nipping structure”), which teend to keep it elongated, and rather loose. ( See the attached pictures ).

I believe that would be a mistake - no single-collar eyeknot should be considered as a secure bowline - for structural knot-related reasons, or for psychological, knot-tyer-related reasons. No bowline would ever be able to replace the fig.8 knot ( which is a two-collar eyeknot ), if it does not have a second collar.
To double the nipping loop may be redundant, or address only the problem of a more even distribution of forces inside the nub, or of the wear of the material, but to double the collar is of paramount importance regarding its security - and most effective !
The Lee Zep X bowline, which is a Link bowline, can be considered as a two-collar bowline, indeed ( the first one being the “link” around the rim of the nipping loop ). I do not know if it will be easy to untie after really heavy loading, though.(See the attached picture).

Some more details on Alan Lee Eye Knots.

Xarax, for completeness - I think we should include the Alan Lee creations as they contain interesting nipping structures.

We still need to settle the definition of what constitutes a Bowline - and I think the Alan Lee creations will serve as useful knot structures for analysis and direct side-by-side comparison.

Also, Alan Lee’s work is quite remarkable and I think he should receive wider recognition.

Just my thoughts…

Mark G


Alan-Lee_EyeKnots_Study.jpg

I like the classification of the eyeknots based on the : 1. Topology, and, 2. Geometry, of the knots tied on : 1., the Standing Part before the eye ( “nipping structures”, if that term makes sense ), and, 2., the Standing Part after the eye ( “collar structures” - a term which makes sense only for historical reasons : it denotes the structures that replace the classic collar of the standard, common bowline ).

I thought that the purpose of the “Analysis” remained the same : “secure” bowlines which can replace the fig.8 knot in climbing and rescue applications. And I came to believe that any such bowline has to have two collars.
I have a fear that if you try to include other, not-PET eyeknots, or bends turned into loops, the scope and the length of the paper would scare people…

Alan Lee is, as far as I know, the most prolific eye-knot-tyer, ever. At the start, I was not very happy that he was not following a more systematic route, and he did nt classified his knots in some way - but now I believe that this was a very clever and productive strategy ! Freedom first, order later. Whoever starts following beaten paths, can not be a free explorer of the KnotLand any more…

Until this day, I have not yet made up my mind, about the issue of those strange-looking φ-shaped nipping structures of him… Are they “double nipping loops”, just of different widths, and placed the smaller “inside” the bigger ?
I admit I find it difficult to remember how to tie those eyeknots, but this is due to the fact that I have been tied bowlines since I remember myself, that is, for ages, and old dogs can not learn new tricks ! :slight_smile:

Hi All,
Mark Thanks you very much, it Is correct, one of these day I got to learn from you how to do these beautiful picture.
I am working on the knots for your bowline paper, I will post it very soon.

      謝謝  alan lee.

Hi Xarax,

The Lee Zep X bowline, which is a Link bowline, can be considered as a two-collar bowline, indeed ( the first one being the "link" around the rim of the nipping loop ). I do not know if it will be easy to untie after really heavy loading, though.(See the attached picture).

The Alan Lee 'Zep X Bowline; is a nice structure.

However, I have an issue with regard to its ability to resist ring-loading events. Try it yourself - it is unstable in a ring-loading profile.
This is its vulnerability - otherwise, the concept is brilliant. I am sure Alan Lee can do some more work to solve this vulnerability! (a challenge for Alan Lee :slight_smile: )

Due its vulnerability to ring-loading, it might be interesting to include it in the ‘Bowlines and other selected Eye knots’ paper. In that, it can be shown as a structure that is vulnerable to ring loading in a side-by-side comparison to #1034 1/2 (Left-hand Bowline).

I would like to include #1047 on account of its universal use - and do a side-by-side comparison to a ‘worthy’ secure Bowline - with detailed analysis of both structures. I would also like to include Dan Lehman’s ‘Lehman8’ but I am finding it really hard to track down suitable high quality images and/or line drawings. Nobody seems to have responded to my calls for assistance in this regard? I would like to take high quality photos of the Lehman8 - and showcase it in the paper (again with technical discussion and analysis of its structure).

I don’t want to showcase every Eye knot on planet Earth…just a selected few that are of significance and technically interesting for side-by-side comparisons to secured Bowlines.

Mark G

Hi Mark,

I think that Alan Lee already won the challenge:with the Lee Zep A1 Bowlines!

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg23155#msg23155 (third image)

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.msg23804#msg23804

The A2 versions indeed distort under ring loading(although maybe nothing tragic happens).

The A1 versions,in addition to seem robust under ring loading,also they seem to well bear some slacks or intermittent dynamic loads(at least relatively to the simplicity of their collar).

                                                                                                                            Bye!

Hi luca,

Thanks for the heads up… but I was specifically referring to Xarax reply #51 above! I should have been a bit clearer on that.

At reply #51, Xarax showed some knot images - and it was those structures that I was specifically referring to.

No matter - I realise there are lots of other Alan Lee creations which are resistant in ring loading profiles.

By the way luca, because you are such a brilliant blood hound and good at sniffing out any piece of information - can you show me where i can find some high quality images of Dan Lehman’s 'Lehman8 ?

Thanks,

Mark

Mark, it’s on pp. 210-211 of this .pdf document. Better save it quick. :slight_smile:

http://www.pssurvival.com/PS/Knots/Knot_Knowledge_Photo_Illustrations_2004.pdf

Downloaded and ‘saved’ alpineer! Many thanks.

Standby for high quality images of the Lehman8…

My camera is getting a good workout :slight_smile:

Easy, even for me ! :slight_smile: Just tie its other-handedness version. ( When it forms the collar, the Working end passes from the other side of the Standing End ). You can also make the Working End pass from the other side of the “link”, the nipping turn formed on the lower rim of the main nipping loop.
If you want to “improve” the other three Lee Zep loops, and turn them into secure, two-collar eyeknots, just add a second collar around a limb which is not yet collared.