Our Guild Mission

General Discussion
81
Consider the [url=http://www.w3.org/]World Wide Web Consortium[/url]. [..] My suggestion would be that the IGKT "arrange" (assign, appoint, berate, cajole, dole out, whatever) a "Working Group" of 5 or 10 people to communicate with the [url=http://www.w3.org/]W3C[/url] and learn as much as possible about the strategy and tactics they used to achieve their mission, then bring that knowledge back to the IGKT at large in the form of a collaborative report.

One word…

Money.

W3C does have a very significant amount of commercial backing. Even a very large corportion run by, say, the richest man in the world, contributes to the ‘pot’. The fact that such a corporation then appears to totally ignore W3C’s recommendations just goes to show that the world we live in isn’t always fair or logical. :slight_smile:

82
Dan, ... could you come up with some more specific suggestions as to how this will work? You did make some good suggestions...

…
You appear to suggest that the majority of knot books are crap, because they parrott what has gone before without thinking and that color photos are put in to sell books.
…
Therefore I need to follow to a certain extent what the publisher wants to have, because they are taking the financial risk.


I listened closely to a t.v. news blurb about the (most) recent case of plagiarism
(or, in author’s non-incriminating-speak, “internalizing (other’s words)”),
and then a follow-up insight that for many books, it is the PUBLISHER who dictates
much of the plot & characters, then seeks an author. I found this to be the case for
Maria Co[n]stantino’s books, where clearly she’d been contracted (after the publisher
couldn’t find some IGKT hack for it) to produce yet another Knots-101 book,
with resultant comedy of some goofs in ignorant paraphrase, etc..

But to the What to do, hmmm, a SIG-PracticalKnotting could inventory the
knotting by application area (user group), building the many knot-sets to each.
Now, KC falls to us from the uppeReaches of limbs, and we might have also other
contacts to the arborist world (and there area several on-line forums, and some
pub’d works). There are likely a few climbers (Derek & I claim some familiarity;
mine is slight, on the fringe (I like to spell it ‘s a f e’ if not ‘c h i c k e n’ :slight_smile: );
maybe some cavers or SAR folks?
Commercial fishing has itself various fields, and all have some regional flavors,
I surmise. But e.g. only with this latter field, in their binding of lines & mesh in
netting, have I seen the Seizing Hitch–the tying of #1243 from R to L,
or top to bottom (end) as Ashley presents it, line running in spiral around whatever
is to be bound, knot sometimes serving to just give intermittent locking of this
spiral wrap. And many other knotted structures of commercial fishing aren’t visible
in published works I’ve been able to find.

Maybe there is sufficient research to be done back in time–read "with rare/old books,
scarce resources, good library–about the history of some knots. Anyone who’s
read Pieter van de Griend’s Letter to Lester can see how this can result
in revised histories, in doubt about the printed word (he sought the origin of the
Constrictor knot–reached a “?” loose end at Tom Bowling’s & Hjalmar Ohrvall’s
mention of it (no images), with neither implying that the knot was new to them
(unlike Ashley did, much later), but also giving no hint of their source for it)!

Maybe some SIG-Materials/Cordage could help describe the various cordage in
use, and to compile some collection of test data & other information. From my not
so well organized observations, I see conflicting information given about materials’
resistance to UV or abrasion, etc., in manufacturer data. A compilation of such would
put all that in more perspicuous contrast.
(My conjecture is that modern cordage has a vastly greater variety of surface
friction (materials & coatings), construction (lays & braids), & elasticity (from the
no-stretch high-mod.s to elonnnnnnngating nylon) than in the past, but much
of the parroted information re knots is brought forward without good adaptation
(this, too, a basis for the Surrey Six).

Peter Suber continues, but has for some time been absorbed with a new job and
unable to actively update/maintain his big WWWebsite on knotting. Maybe some
folks could offer to help out there, or to mirror via clean-up?

Both the practical-knotting SIG & some impractical/worthless-er-decorative-knotting
SIG (smiley smiley SMILEY) could seek by simple look-&-see-&-record compilation
greatly expand the current IGKT WWWeb site’s “Other Websites of Interest”,
perhaps with some further categorization of listings–there’d be lots of folks’ own
sites up for decorative works, easily! And maybe there’d be a periodically updated
Overview document giving some explanation of the area as an introduction to the
collected sites (which might be seen as furthering what P.Suber has done).

E-mail, e-communications are fast; but personal lives move in a different pace,
and we must build our patience remembering that, too.

–dl*

83

About freedom…

Most people living in the USA think they are living in the most free country.
That is a dream, so if you think that way, please dream on.

Our freedom is different from yours but we do not need to sue everybody to proof we are free.
We have different laws from you, we also have different laws from our neighbours, we are not upset about it.
We try to live our lifes so that we do not break the laws, unless we feel that breaking the law is really important.

About the guild moving slowly…

As an international organisation we have to comply with the law in Europe, as well as the law in America.
And with the tendency in America to sue and the protection of the European laws we might be a little too tied in to move freely.

I do understand the hessitation of the commity of the guild and their trying to stay within the law. If they let the guild break laws they are, as a person, responsible.
And our prisons might be more humane than what I see from the USA, I can understand that they do not want to run the risk. (Nor the risk of paying a heavy fine, which is much more likely.)

But when the commity of the IGKT agrees to go for something they often do it wholeheartedly and with great speed. So they might surprise you one day.

Willeke

84

Hi Jimbo,

Man, I nearly missed the chance to respond to your excellent suggestion on April 28 in the evening about how to get some hints from the W3C - that architecture is already on their web-site! They (in our case the IGKT Working Group or whatever) define Activities, then gather Groups interested in the defined Activities (from among the membership of interested parties), then ask for a Proposal from the Group to get the Activity completed - couldn’t be simpler! The whole process could be repeated over and over with different Activities each time. I like it!

We would not NEED money - as long as we have willing volunteers, we can achieve whatever we put our mind to do. :slight_smile: However, they may need some considerable guidance…

Thanks for the suggestion!

Lindsey

85

Hi Dan,

Now you’re thinking and making positive suggestions at the same time - wonderful!! :slight_smile: :wink: :smiley: ;D

Your idea of SIGs (Special Interest Groups, for those who may not know what it means) is right along the same lines as Jimbo referenced in his posting about using the architecture of the W3C Activities and Groups method. There are many methods, but both of these methods seem more collaborative than others and would definitely help to pull us together instead of pulling us apart. Some of them may even need to work together first (alone? shudder!) before releasing their ideas for general comment? 8)

Anyone for tennis? I seem to recall that this is a line from a play, but that may not have been its first use - it was an invitation to come join an activity together, albeit sometimes competitively, known colloquially as play - wanna play? Let me know…

Lindsey

86

someone mentioned peter suber’s annotated link omnibus and the possibility of the guild maintaining one. another thing to consider for a guildie is to work for the Open Directory Project (http://www.dmoz.org/). This is a volunteer organization that feeds google and various other search engines and thus very important. I have volunteered off and on with the decorative knotting category, but can’t keep up (and am not currently the editor for that category or the macrame category. last i looked both are up for grabs).

This would be important and influential work for someone knowledgeable, and with the time and energy to keep up with the ever growing and evolving web.

87

Great site Carol,

Some very interesting material and quite extensive too! Thanks for the heads-up

Lindsey

88

I’m going to go ahead and beat a dead horse, because, perhaps I wasn’t clear before. The open directory project was created as an open source competitor to Yahoo. It has since surpassed Yahoo and feeds both Yahoo and Google and a host of other search engines and major portals because it is open source, because the subject matter experts are volunteers (and you could be one, the application process is simple). In this sense it is closely allied to the Wikipedia (the volunteer part, I don’t think the Wikipedia makes you audition to enter data).

89

Lindsey,
I have to admit to being very remiss - that in all the deliberations on this topic, I who should have known better, failed to check the Guild Constitutional Rules. I too took the three mission statements on this site to be correct - they are in fact a precis and not direct from the book.
Nothing changes in my quest to support you at the AGM and to take onboard the comments of the contributors but here - for the record - is how the Rule book is written - and I urge all the contributors to read it carefully.

Rule 2
The object of the Guild shall be the advancement of education by the study of and practice of the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present. In furtherance of this object but not otherwise the Guild shall have the following powers:
i) To undertake research into all aspects of knotting and to publish the useful results.
ii) To establish and authoritative body for consultation purposes.
iii) To publish a periodical or periodicals and other papers and books about knotcrafts and related subjects.
iv) To form and maintain a library of books, papers, films, photographs and other materials about knotcrafts and related subjects, with a view to making information available to Members of the Guild, and the general public.
v) To fom a collection of knots and knotting and work related crafts.
vi) To encourage the employment of knotcrafts as a manual activity in schools, and as a therapy among the physically handicapped.

As I said, this is just to set the record straight so that nobody is in any doubt about the official line - I will get Mel to change the Mission Statement i.d.c.

90

Hi Gordon,

Many thanks for the heads up! Well, that clarifies one part of the Mission Statement as to why we have three parts to it. So, for the benefit of all readers and posters, this is what the current Mission probably looks like, if I am correctly interpreting what is in the Rule:

The Mission, or rather, the object of the Guild is “…the advancement of education by the study [of] and practice of the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present…”

That is what we are here for, the advancement of education. Our object is the advancement of education by studying and practising the art, craft and science of knotting, past and present? Now I know it needs to be cleared up! How do we do that?!

Let’s see, there are other questions also; we have the power, as a Guild, to further this object of advancement of education by doing one or all of only six things:

i) To undertake research into all aspects of knotting and to publish the useful results.
ii) To establish an authoritative body for consultation purposes.
iii) To publish a periodical or periodicals and other papers and books about knotcrafts and related subjects.
iv) To form and maintain a library of books, papers, films, photographs and other materials about knotcrafts and related subjects, with a view to making information available to Members of the Guild, and the general public.
v) To form a collection of knots and knotting and work related crafts.
vi) To encourage the employment of knotcrafts as a manual activity in schools, and as a therapy among the physically handicapped.

We may not, as a Guild, then do any of those six things, or anything else, if it does not go to the advancement of education. How do we know when something is to the advancement of education? How do we decide … and when? This is not clear to me.

Question for Members: Did you sign up for the advancement of education?

There must be something I have missed, because this does not make sense to me. Now I really need clarification! I feel sure that someone will be able to provide the answer and I hope that it can be done soon enough to assuage the tide of comment that we have seen so far. It is obvious that people are keen to take part in knotting, and to take part in defining knotting (and knots) and to know what the science of knotting really amounts to. We also have established a library of books, papers, etc. 8) We have also published a periodical. 8) 8) How do these facts go to the advancement of education? Are we speaking of child education, adult education, physical education, or what? :-/ Your thoughts fellow kinkers of cordage, twiddlers of twine and strokers of string? Where would you go to find out? ???

Lindsey

91

I suspect that the wording has something to do with the requirements of the Charities Commission. Advancement probably started off as ‘Promote’ but that sounds too commercial for a charity so change it to ‘Advancement’ - I am sure you get my drift - in the end you get a legal document, that can be twisted to suit the problem of the day, even if it is not good old “Plain English”

Gordon

92

I read it as ‘teach whenever you can, help other people teaching and support the general tries to get the teaching done on a professional basis’.

Yes I did sign up to do that.

(But mostly because this fellow I met said I would be at home with these knottying people, he was right.)

Willeke

93

Hi Willeke,

Hmmm! Teaching = education? Not my thought, but perhaps I am too literal. How about:

Teaching is what you do to/with an individual to help educate them and;

Education is what you get from a teacher/educator/instructor/self-study session?

Am I being too literal when I read what is written, that we, the IGKT Members, have the object of advancement of education? We have as our goal furthering the overall goal of the education profession? Is that what is being said?

If your (anyone’s) desire is to form very practical knots and to form wonderfully intricate knots and it is your great desire to teach others - that is all absolutely great and that advances ONE PART of what we do as a Guild - after all a Guild is many, not one. So what about those of us, who also signed up to make knots, and who also saw the opportunity for publishing and conducting research about knots, for understanding the science of knots, for helping the handicapped (physically differently-abled) become better abled through knotting, and for art and craft development, not just in the sense of beautiful knots but in objects made with beauty using knots in at least some part?

You have answered the call of the first part, and kudos to you for having done that and for continuing to do that, but how do the other schlubs like me get to work on the OTHER parts?

I did not ask the question as a challenge, but as a question such as you might have had in school - how does the Guild’s Mission get answered IN FULL? If we cannot even find out what the question is, how do we get to answer that call?

An old skipper friend once was testing my ability to get the answers in commanding a vessel, and his favorite response was “What comes before you do that?”, by which he wanted to know if I could honestly respond that I had given a complete answer and thought everything through. That was and is a good mantra for me. I have carried that with me and I still try to respond in that way, to every opportunity that I get to be responsive. So, my question has to do with, how completely are we providing for our members? Have we offered what we do, or just posed a teaser? If, as a Guild, we have posed the opportunity to prospective members to do something that appeals to them, how do we as a Guild provide that opportunity, or is the opportunity (our Mission Statement) just not there (hot air)?

I said I had a dilemma, and I was right, it is a dilemma - can it be done or can it not? Do we meet the Mission (whatever it is) or do we not? It is a simple question and I find myself running in tighter circles trying to find the straight answer. Willeke, you have helped tremendously to straighten out some part of that for contributors to this forum, a part that I felt I had a reasonable handle on already. PABPRES said much the same in his response, that we are already meeting our Mission. So what about the rest of the Mission - is there anything there or is it not there yet?

Maybe I should just shuffle off and have a cup of tea?! No answer yet, but still trying - very trying! Thanks for reading…

Lindsey

94

Lindsey,
remember an old truth:
Even the longest journey starts with the first step.

So I feel we should walk on while thinking about ways to do the rest.

One way, I have mentioned already, is trying to get a journal started. I read since that one of the problems the commity has is that they do not have a member with experience in publishing accademic papers.
So we need to search for an editor for the Journal who has the needed experience. Wheather it will be one journal or a series of booklets printed in demand and sold for a little more than cost.

At the same time we are looking into teaching.
First children and adults who come to us, but at the same time not forgetting people with special needs.
I think most of us teaching at shows, or just in the center of town, have had people with special needs approaching us.
In my case it were mostly young people who had learning abilities of a much younger child. But I try to keep other disabilities in mind too when I write for my website, however, having never had to teach a blind person I do not know how much (or little) of my explanations would make sense to them.

As a person who has never been to university, nor has interest in research I am not the person to do research but whenever asked a question I can answer I do my best to assist people who do research.
And when the guild is going to publish research papers as booklets I intent to buy them to encourage the guild to go on publishing.

Doing my part in establishing an authoritative body for consultation purposes is as hard.
When aproached I did send the person on to one of the guild members who is able to answer the question, which is my little step in the process.

I have done my part in buying, and will continue to do so, the guild publications. And maybe one day I will be able to have a book of my own published by the Guild.

I also tried to help the guild library by pointing out books they did not already have, but being in an other language country does not always help. (And buying Dutch language books for the guild did not seem vital either.) But I do have my own collection of knotbook which might one day join the guild library.

We are talking about a new set of knotwork to be made for the 25th birthday, and this collection going on show.
(I never realized the guild should have a collecton of knotwork, but now I am reminded I will ask about the collection and how we manage it.)

I did have a good look at all the points again and tought about them.
As you see above, I do take whatever small steps I can and hope the others in the guild do take theirs.

Willeke

PS,
this post is too long, but I could not answer in full and still be compact.
Sorry.

95

Lindsey, I admire your courage in attempting this whole thread about our “Mission”.
As with so many wonderful creations I can’t believe that the founding fathers of IGKT could have dreamed how far their child has traveled.
You ask “Question for Members: Did you sign up for the advancement of education?”. When I joined I surely was not concerned with IGKT goals and mission statements. I was just thrilled to find that there was any orginization devoted to what I had though of as a solitary persuit. I expected to learn a great deal (and well I have) so you may say education was at the root of my signing on. As I read the back issues of KM and KN I became inspired to try to teach some of my simple skills in print, resulting in 20 or so articles. Years passed and I finally got to attend a show. Wow! Now the teaching phase really became intense. I thought we’d just put out some of our favorite projects but that turns out to be just the bait. You hear that same comment “I didn’t know there was such an organization… how do I join?” Teaching has become a large part of my IGKT interaction. Then came requests to do stage demonstrations, which lead to the “Fifteen Second Thump Mat” and I had to learn to hold forth with constant patter while making ocean plats and prolong mats and so forth. That lead to my first posted tutorial on the internet at KHWW. So to put this in a nutshell: My whole IGKT experience is very much based in education (mine and others). I really would need to think if there were a more significant way to advance the body of knowledge than what we collectively do. Lindsey, your wonderful books are the result of your individual efforts but I wonder if you would have been inspired to write had you never joined the guild? It will be good fun to see how the guild grows and what new venues open. Who could have guessed this site would exist.

96

Thank you Willeke,

A very earnest and heartfelt reply and well worth reading over again. Thank you for pointing out that we can indeed do things in small pieces. Thank you also for pointing out that we can each contribute something, no matter how small we may think it is, for the end result will be as a rope, useful and strong. Your contributions are indeed very powerful and it would definitely be useful to have a journal, not just of learned papers, but of the everyday acts of our members like you, contributing great benefits to others.

Individually, we have a strong set of members who are acting as they see fit and proper, and they are doing a great job of that. Think how much more could be achieved and known if we were to act together, like a rope, so that we could harness the synergy of all, pulling together in the same direction, or like a net, gathering the energies together. Our Council is the guide that is intended to act as our directing force, the unifying body that gets us all to pull together, like so many strands, each different but empowered to do something worthwhile, so that we can achieve great things as a Guild. It is to the Council that I will now turn, to find what they can provide by way of a consistent, comprehensive, understandable, unifying direction for the many energies that we all represent.

Lindsey

97

i came to this site to contribute and take into / from an open pool of knotting knowledge. Whether wishful thinking or not; it is what i thought the name somehow implied. i must ask, if this is not the place for this, then where is? Is there some other peoples better suited? Someplace named better for it?

It is also why in past years i have come here, then wandered off; kinda in dismay. Those that have been here awhile, probably don’t have this outsiders view/ expectation. But, i think it is more of a common sense expectation, than to just seek to find ornamental knot talk, meetings, sales events etc. Especially if you seek to grow; i’d think the doors should be opened wider to encompass more, and more folks.

Being new, i’ve sat back and watched the turbulence, as change from olde comfortable ways is proposed. All along pretty much ‘siding’ with Derek, and respecting what he has tried to spearhead and bring about; towards the point that i always thought this place should be anyway.

Peace

98

Lindsey,

For all that I support your innitiative in this thread, I believe ‘from the heart’ that you are 180 degrees out in your focus for action.

It is to the Council that I will now turn, to find what they can provide by way of a consistent, comprehensive, understandable, unifying direction for the many energies that we all represent.

You can turn to the Council to hopefully inspire them, you might even join the Council, if that is on your agenda, and add some much needed direct action. Perhaps you will be able to direct some funding towards the provision of elements which could empower members to contribute to the Guilds Mission (whatever that may be). You can even sit around a table and flap jaw and make some very important decisions for the rest of us to ‘pay attention to’.

And then what?

More hot air, more edicts, more pontification – but no change. No action. Why? Because the driving force for action is not at the Council table, it is out here – it is the contributors. Members and (like me) non-members all keen to take the field of knotting forward - us, the “Anoraks of Hairy String”.

There has been massive interest and energy poured into this thread from more contributors than have posted on any topic for many months. That energy is going to go to waste by you effectively closing the subject with a passionate “I’m taking our woes to THE COUNCIL, folks – I may be some time – Wish me luck”

The passion is here with the contributors and the action is here with the contributors. For “The Anoraks of Hairy String” the body must lead the head in the sense that the doers must set what they want their Council to do for them. When the contributors decide on a naming and numbering system, the Council will adopt it for them. When the contributors set a course of action, the Council will promote it for them.

Why is this the truth?

Because, we “The Anoraks of Hairy String” can either get off our collective arses and start making this Guild what we want it to be, or we can all sit back and leave the Council to ‘float a little hot air’ and look forward to another 20 years of petrification.

Some have already started ‘Doing’ by collecting material using the Wiki - so the rest of us that truely want action - get contributing to the future of knotting in the Wiki at http://igkt.pbwiki.com/ – sign on with your name, email address and use the password igkt .

The area attracting the most input at the moment is ‘Building The Index of Knots’

Alternatively, do nothing and watch your string turn to stone as you wait another 20 years in the hope that ‘they’ will ‘do something’.

Derek Smith
Self confessed “Anorak of Hairy String”

99

To members of the Council who may have been upset by my inference that the Council ‘does nothing’.

Please do not waste any of your energies getting upset and letting us all know just how busy you have been. I do not doubt that there has been much activity behind the scenes, just keeping the boat affloat. For this you have our thanks.

The post is about ‘doing that which has not yet been done’ and the stagnation of the last 20 years is proof to that effect. If your gall has been stired by my critical comments, then please consider for one moment what would best benefit the Guild - having a return kick at me (make you feel better yes - but would it help the Guild?) or paying heed to my words and perhaps taking the lead in developing a ‘Knotting Issue’ which has tempted you for years, yet you never got round to it because you were too busy with Guild business?

Yes, you (the Council) are all contributors too, so there is no magic ‘Council’ line preventing you from being part of the ground swell of action that actually does something for a change. But if you still feel the need for a pop at me - please go ahead - after all, they are only words!!!

Derek

100

Hi Derek,

Yes, you are right that action is needed and, if you read our Librarian’s post you will see that perhaps the web-site does not have a completely correct Mission Statement? That being the case, I have been beating my head about for nothing so far - better that I had learned this earlier than later, but now I am wiser, and not too much older. Once I know what the Mission is, then I can start getting it in order. I want to get the action going and I think that my response time is a pretty good indication of the heartfelt manner in which I believe that this will occur. You may not be aware that the next Council meeting will be at or shortly after the AGM this month in Shrewsbury. If nothing is resolved, then I can start taking action elsewhere - nothing of course need prevent my doing that now but, frankly, I have to earn a living and so cannot devote so much of my time rattling around trying to find answers to the wrong questions. First, I need to find out what it is we are supposed to be doing, which of course includes tying knots (something I have not been able to do much of lately) and then I can put my energies into going along that path instead of trying to fight my way through interminable jungle just to come out in the same place, exhausted and with a new path, destroyed forest behind me, with an easier path that I could have followed with much less effort and time right there aloongside me.

I want to have an easier life, not a harder one and I want to get there with as little effort as I need to expend, unless I feel that this is such a travesty that I cannot stand it and must do something. The reason I decided to wait is to regain my energy and then forge ahead in the appropriate direction, rather than simply forging ahead with a new path.

This is the 100th post to this thread so I am not wanting in the energy - I just want to spend it appropriately.

Lindsey