Re: My Working Notes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Hi dear all,
The bends shown in " My Working Notes"are tied in three Ends Starting Methods.
They are :

  1. Cross Ends,
  2. Opposite Ends, and
  3. Parallel Ends,
    which you will find the two working ends are all going to form overhand, underhand, interlocking, non-interlocking loops. These are alternative ways to get into the loop forms of the shapes b, d, p, q, 6 and 9 for some existing and new bends.

Based on these three starting ways, some new bends together with their mirror-images are discovered, recorded and posted for sharing.

Further to the posted " My Working Notes " and " My Working Notes 2 ", herewith are the "My Working Notes 3 ", the " List of Bends " and a diagram of " Variations and Features " uploaded for sharing. Here the link :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6M254Y0VsckVXMWc?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6bm1RQUNvTnhwTEk?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6enNvemJWTmxSaTg?usp=sharing

Wui-yuen Chan (yChan)
20th September 2017

Hello Wui-yen Chan,

I’m surprised no one has replied to your post.

If Xarax was still a member of this forum, he would have replied almost immediately.

Xarax and I had explored these types of bends in 2011.

I first started looking at #1402 (Reef knot) as a base and other superimposed bights/loops.

Xarax in particular took things a lot further a virtually tied every possible combination. If you search this forum using ‘xarax’ as a key word, you will find literally hundreds if not well over a thousand knots that he tied and presented to the IGKT.

By the way, nice work!
Keep tying knots and presenting them…

Hopefully Xarax will notice my reply post and he might contact me with details and links pointing to his work in this area. If he does, I’ll post his reply herein.

Mark Gommers

Hi Mark G, thanks for the comments. Am waiting for more comments.

yChan

I received this email from Xarax:

NOTE TO FORUM MODERATORS: I hope that I am not breaking any rules by posting content from Xarax..I received his consent to post his email in this forum. I am of the view that Xarax has made some important contributions to our collective knot knowledge. I am not sure of the nature and extent of any open/ongoing or existing bans with regard to Xarax?

Bends

Of course I have examined carefully all the knots presented by yChang seconds after he presented them at the Forum ! However, I didn’t have his e-mail address, to congratulate him, and tell him my opinion on them, in particular, and on the issue of bends, in general ( on which I do NOT consider myself a master, as Roger E. Miles is - I only have tied some good tight hitches and one secure TIB bowline… )

  1.   First, we have to tie every possible simple bend there is.
    

( I use the word ?is?/ =?exists?, but I could had used the world ?can be? / ?can be tied? as well ? simple knots are like basic mathematical numbers, shapes or theorems. We can say that they ?exist,? in a quasi-Platonic means, even if they have not been discovered yet by us, humans. We cannot say they are free, pure creations of the human mind, like art ? sooner or later, every sufficiently intelligent being, wherever and whenever in the Universe, would discover them ).

?Practical? bends, for many reasons, can not be but simple bends ? but ?simple? is not as simple a thing as it sounds! J Moreover, in knots ?simplicity?, even if it can be defined unambiguously, it can be estimated by different measures ? as I had tried to explain, in vein, in :
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3740.0

In this thread I claim that multiple re-tuckings, and multiple turns, and multiply ( helically ) coiled segments, reduce the simplicity of a knot, because they increase the complexity of the path the rope follows in 3-D - regardless how easily can the knot be set-up and dressed during tying, and how conceptually simple and easy to remember is its shape and/or tying method.

Therefore, we have to place some limits on the complexity of the ?practical? bends we use. Otherwise, the ?practical? bend, which is a tool a piece of engineering, becomes too complex, un-practical and over-engineered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overengineeringractical

  1.   Second, we have to test all those knots, and see which are secure and un-jammable.
    

( Ideally, ?maximally? secure, and ?maximally? un-jammable ). By ?maximally?, I mean under as heavy load as the knots themselves can withstand ? they should not slip, and they should not jam, even on the brink of their rupture.). And we have to test them on the ?common? rope materials AND on the very slippery materials like UHMWPE ? two distinct lines of tests ).

Needless to say, regarding the second task, nothing ( = 0 ) has been done? J

Regarding the first task.

Rioger E. Miles had thought that, by starting from the planar representations of bends, he would discover all the interesting knots that can serve as practical bends. However, he did nt consider two things :

First, that, oftentimes, the loaded knot acquires a very different geometrical shape than the initially set-up and dressed knot. Second, that identical planar representations can lead to different, geometrically, knots ( bistable knots ), and it is the geometry of the loaded knot, and not the topology of its initial tying diagram, which determines how the knot behaves regarding security and jamming. As, sometimes, knots with different, topologically, initial tying diagrams behave almost in the same way ( and we even call them by the same name, for example, the ?left? and the ?right-hand? common bowlines ), sometimes knots with the same, topologically, initial tying diagrams behave differently. Topology reigns only in mathematical knots ? in practical knots, it almost does nt matter.
It is no surprise that Miles did nt generate a complete catalogue if all the simple bends, and he just published tying diagrams and pictures of the dressed but yet unloaded of a few of them.

It seems to me that this over-estimation of the capability of the initial tying diagrams to generate all the simple knots is a common mistake ? possibly because we are accustomed to remember knots and ( one of their many ) tying methods together, we store them in the same corner of our brain, and we tend to confuse them? Noope, unfortunately, by starting from simple initial tying diagrams, and simple initial pre-bends ( the Reef, the Butterfly, etc. ), we can NOT discover all the simple bends there can be, and we can not produce a complete, exhaustive cataloguing and enumeration of the simple bends? And THAT is the task, all the knots that can be, not only some ?new? knots ( which may well have been tied many times in the past, but, just because they have not been members of a well-studied complete set of knots, and because they have not been tested, they have been forgotten?

I have tried to ?bypass? the complete enumerating and the testing phases by ?guessing? bends that would be easy to untie ? like the ?Easy to untie? bend, for example. How wrong I was? By actually testing those bends, under heavy or even moderate loading, all of my guesses have been proved so wrong. Many ?guessed? forms, during tensioning, change completely, even lose their initial symmetry, capsize, slip, become a jammed lump of material, you name it?

It is true that I have tied, and tried, most of the bends presented by yChang ( but not all ). And it is also true that, starting from simple, well known and easy to form configurations, and re-tucking them, one can discover ?new? knots. However, many ?re-tuckings? are tricky, and that is why they have not been explored systematically, and they have escaped the attention of knot tyers. The Ampersand bowline is just such a simple, single re-tucking of the common bowline, but it has not been found for many years. Also, I came to believe that this way of generating ?new? knots is like wandering in our desert of ignorance, hoping to un-cover something, but it is not the road we have to follow from now on. We are well beyond that point. We need our Mendeleev, a systematic, ?complete periodic? table of bends, based on some new concept, property, generating method, whatever, something that would produce all the simple bends there are. And then, we have to test them !

Under ?Xarax?, as well as under ? X1?, I have published some ?new? bends in the Forum ? with pictures, of course. yChang may search there for something identical, or similar to the knots he presents. He SHOULD also read Miles ! Also, he may find something interesting at :

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3086.0

As a present, for his beautiful work, tell him to read one attempt, similar to his, to discover a class of bends - in which he will find some of the knots he published.
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4445.0
In particular, I like the & bend shown at
https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4445.msg29585#msg29585

But that ( 'like" ) means nothing ! This bend jams even by looking at it !

I don’t see a problem in quoting Xarax (or anyone else with their permission) as long as the quote is relevant (as this is) and does not contain insulting or derisory comment. Xarax was banned from the forum for persistently making inflammatory remarks to and about other posters. This went on after he was temporarily banned and reinstated. The problem for Moderators is that although both of us check the forum regularly (and because of the time difference in our locations we can cover a broad timeframe) we can only act once a post has been uploaded by which time the damage may well have been done. If a responsible Forum member, such as agent_smith in this case, posts (as necessary edited) material sourced from a non-member then that would be welcome in my opinion.

Sweeney

Thank you Sweeney.

I am pleased that I have not broken any forum rules.

Mark Gommers

Hi dear all. Thanks for the comments.
I have not been here since mid 2011. I know I have missed a lot of your works. I am pleased that someone would let me know that some of my knots are discovered and have been mentioned before. In this respect, I suggest this forum should create a photo library for keeping the “Claimed New Knot”. It will classify to categories of knots, date of entry and together with tying steps or sketches for members to search for and study.
I just come back here two months before my postings. I see that in some old threads “New Knots” photos were not come with tying method unless you ask. IMO, it is not the attitude to share with the public. A photo of loosen knot could not help any. We should share the tying procedure/methods and the finished knots. Let people try tying it and enjoy your findindgs.

yChan

Hi dear all, here are “My Working Notes 4”. Wish to share with you all and comments.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6eFpnNlJicmFYRXc?usp=sharing

Thanks.

yChan

Dear all, I have make a big mistake in the ABOK#1425 in “My Working Notes”. I will revise them accordingly.

yChan

Hi all, the notes are revised. The links are:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6M254Y0VsckVXMWc?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6bm1RQUNvTnhwTEk?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6enNvemJWTmxSaTg?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6J2Skk3l1u6eFpnNlJicmFYRXc?usp=sharing

Happy knotting

yChan

Hi siriuso,

I have received a detailed reply from Xarax about your work.

I have been acting as his ‘proxy’ but, I am somewhat reluctant to post further messages because some members on this IGKT forum are sounding concerns about me doing this.

I can send you a PM with Xarax email address (I’ll check with him to confirm) - if you would like to transact conversations with him privately.

My personal reply to your post is as follows…

1425A is the actual ‘ABoK’ reference number (written as #1425A) for Phil D Smith’s Riggers Bend (aka Hunters Bend).

The various loops you use as the basis for tying all of the bends are very interesting - Xarax (and initially myself) had explored this in great detail some years ago. I will try to dig up his posts/links to his posts for your reference.

It would be helpful if you could add commentary about the ‘chirality’ of your interlinked loops (eg ‘left’ versus ‘right’ chirality).

It is amazing what can be created from interlinked loops - as a starting base, and I commend you for the marvelous work that you have done :slight_smile:

Mark G

Hi Mark G, formerly in my working notes, I have presented the other tying methods of ABOK#1425 as well as Hunter’s Bend ABOK#1425A. Recently I found I was wrong about 1425 and have updated the working notes. Still you can see there are tying methods for ABOK#1425.
I have contact you in PACI.
Thanks for letting me know you and Xarax have been working on bends. I love bends also.

yChan

Hi dear all, in “My Working Notes”, I have found one new bend is not new, it is Rxxx Bend (sorry for keeping it’s name in secret and would be announce later). By the maintime you would be most welcome if any of you could review my bends and let me have your comments.

yChan

Hello yChan,

Have you seen/read ‘Knotting Matters’ #8 (July 1984)?
Article by Harry Asher starting at pages 2-8.

I would also suggest reading Harry Ashers book: ‘The Alternative Knot Book’ 1989 ISBN: 0911378952
Starting at page 22, Asher discusses what he calls ‘sense’ - ie, ‘chirality’ or ‘handedness’ of a loop.
And later, at page 55, he further explores the inter-linked loops (such as #1425A Riggers bend and then the ‘Eastern Zeppelin bend’).

Worth a look if you haven’t already done so…

Mark G

Hi Mark, I have ordered all the KMs after I joined the guild in 1997. Thanks to the guild for decades later issued a CD. I just read your recommended articles about “sense” and “handedness” of a loop both in KM#8 and the “The Alternative Knot Book”. I do not like to follow and use the code too. I have my own abbreivated code, such as Cr, Pa, TwB, Di, Ri to be used on my notes as photo taking is not available. I did my notes with photos and drawings to show the steps. They are clear to everyone.
On page 59, Eastern Zeppelin, says : …The left-handed light loop is simply laid on top of the dark one…
I have classified the known bends as with interlocking loops, they are Alpine Butterfly Bend, Ashley’s Bend, Hunter’s Bend, Shake Hands Bend. But NOT Zeppelin Bend and Eastern Zeppelin.
I distinguish them by the primary composition of the two overhand/underhand loops whether they are interlocked or not interlocked. So I would like to know more about
inter-linked
inter-weaved/woven
inter-connected
superposed / superimposed

Thanks

yChan

So I would like to know more about [ ] inter-linked [ ] inter-weaved/woven [ ] inter-connected [ ] superposed / superimposed

Xarax is the person you need to correspond with…he is the one who ignited my interest in these technical definitions.

I can say that I had been analyzing the structure of #1425A (Riggers bend) in comparison to the Zeppelin bend in an attempt to understand why one structure jams and the other doesn’t.
I had been corresponding with Xarax - and he brought these technical terms to my attention in an attempt to knock some sense into me :o

Having has some sense knocked into me - I came to realize that Xarax is on to something.

#1425A Riggers bend (to my eye) consists of inter-woven overhand knots.
Zeppelin bend (to my eye) consists of inter-linked overhand knots.

Now Xarax will of course correct me if i am wrong (he always does - he lectures me and basically scolds me for being ‘retarded’).

Anyhow, with the complexities and vagaries of the English language, i think the term ‘inter-linked’ overhand knots is possibly a more accurate way to describe the structure of the Zeppelin bend. Keep in mind that I am a native English speaker while Xarax is a native Greek speaker…so its all greek to me ;D

I am now waiting for Xarax to contact me… please standby ::slight_smile:

Mark G

Hi dear all, here is “My working Notes 5”. The link is :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1czsx2ScSIgfMClJ7du9vjWaANclF0rW7?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting
yChan

Hi dear all, here is “My working Notes 6”. The link is :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kH7nWyQ_BlSl17YINxUeUvTOAjtwRYfa?usp=sharing

Happy Knotting

yChan

Thanks for your work yChan.

May I suggest that you also describe the ‘loops’ in terms of ‘chirality’ (left-handed versus right-handed or S twist Versus Z twist).

For example, the zeppelin bend in your notes is constructed from 2 superposed loops of opposite chirality.
In contrast, the Riggers bend (#1425A) is constructed from 2 inter-linked loops of the same chirality.

I found the images in your ‘working notes #5’ easier to view than #6.

It would therefore be great if you could produce an alternate form of your working notes showing the relationship of bends in terms of:
loop chirality
inter-linked versus superposed
and whether if makes any difference if the chirality is revered

Mark G

Hi Marks and dear all, thanks for your comments and suggestion.
I think at this moment I will not make notes with loop chirality or handedness of the bends because each of these bends possess a few loop formations and of course will have different loop chirality descriptions. Such as Zeppelin Bend has 6 loops forms, Rigger’s Bend has 8, Ashley’s Bend has 6 etc.
Starting from the beginning, I aim to do the OTHER tying methods, they are differ from the known tying methods. I have had delivered some startings and tying methods in My Working Notes such as Ends Crossing, Opposite, Parallel, Twist, Spiral Drops, Pecking Duck … These starts tying methods will access to different loops formations of bends. Also at the finished ends tuckings they are either in crossing, non crossing, twisted elbow or not, the results will be different and becomes another bend.
You may use my loops formations charts to name out their loop chirality. I always think that the chirality description applied to some loop knots and bowlines are most adequate as each knot is with one SP and one WE. But for the bends, apart from my mentioned reasons above (different starts tying methods) , each bend is with two SPs and two WEs and each may pointing differently to four directions North, South, East and West (64 sets are worked out).
About Bends of superposed are of Types 1 and 2, and the Bends of interlocked type are of Types 3 and 4. They are tabulated in my Loops Formations Charts of Bends in “My Working Notes 5”.
You can find out the difference if the loops chirality is changed or reversed in the chart also. But except two bends, though the loops chirality is changed or reversed, the bend remain unchanged (but reversed and mirrored). They are Alpine Butterfly Bend and Y-lock Bend.
About the terms used to describe chirality, I prefer to use S twist loop and Z twist loop. For the terms S twist and Z twist are common and universal used in rope, cable and screw threads.

yChan