'Slack Security' - terminology for a subcategory of security?

Knotting Concepts & Explorations
,
1

Hi,

First, I’m not a native English speaker, so maybe I’m just missing a basic expression here. The most descriptive expression I came up with is “Fiddle Stability”, but I’m unsure whether that conveys what I mean with it.

The term stability as I understand it, is generally used to describe how well a knot holds under tension before it slips (or otherwise fails). It’s often contrasted with strength, which measures how much of the rope’s original breaking strength remains when a given knot is used.

What I’m looking for is an expression for stability in terms of the knot being tossed around and/or touched without particular care but only minor tension.

As Example: This kind of stability would be important for a knot around a key ring which is stuffed into pockets and pulled out frequently. As such fingers would frequently push or pull at the knot, the line around the object and the ends exiting the knot. Absent-minded fingers might play idly with the knot. Random other objects could come into contact with the knot.

The term “shaking loose” as I understand it has some overlap, in that low tension is involved. But an important part of what I’m asking for here is the knot itself being frequently touched (fiddled with).

Do you know an established or easily understood term for this kind of stability?

2

I’ve considered such a thing a “slack-security”.
And I’m amazed at the knots that come loose
in the pocket, tied in 1/4" / 5mm-ish solid-braid
nylon cord, and set so NOT to loosen (with e.g.
a Strangle knot or maybe ends joined w/Thrun’s
Joint (aka “zeppelin”), and so on. (Meanwhile,
the very short-Tail’d Thrun’s Joint connection of the
small polyester flat braid has been tied w/o issue
(w/one might say “blossoming ends”)
FOR DECADES !!!)

–dl*

[Post #1 for me on New forum]

1 Like
3

Regarding specific knot terminology to describe characteristics such as stability and security:

Definitions

Security refers to the ability of a knot to resist slipping apart as load is applied and increased.

Stability refers to the the ability of the knot to withstand changes in geometry (its structure and shape) as load is applied and increased.

Aside from these basic definitions, we need to further qualify:

  • the type of load applied; and
  • the direction of loading.

When we use a term such as ‘slack shaking’ - this is actually describing a type of loading profile. We are subjecting the knot to an input force - a combination of vibration and ‘back n forth’ oscillations all while under very low force.

Cyclic loading is where load is applied, and then released. Then reapplied again, and then released. This ‘cycle’ is repeated many times over a period of time.

Whiplash (or flogging) is where the knot flung at high velocity (like a whip). It can also be applied where the knot is whipped against (and strikes) a hard surface.

In specific reference to your stated input force of “fiddly fingers” that frequently touch a knot:

What you are describing is physical contact with the knot - the knot is subject to bumping (which is actually a type of flogging/whiplash at very low force). When you pull the knot out of your pants pocket, it is subject to a combination of slack shaking and cyclic loading… all at low force levels.

1 Like
7

Alright, it’s rather a subcategory of security, thanks for the correction.

Slack security in the sense of “remains secure (in all regards) when slack” is probably the right direction. The expression tends to invoke the image of a knot that goes slack in-between high-ish tension though. I guess “security” has a strong conation in my mind with high tension.

Part of me would prefer a more direct indication of the often unusual loading profiles and the knot being picked and pulled by random things in random ways, but always with rather low tension.

13

Good day tyak and welcome.

I believe that the term security encompasses what you are describing. Even in a pocket with fiddling if it remains tied it is a secure knot. Of course how well it was dressed, how tight, what material and what knot it is will have influence on the survive ability. I have a key lanyard made with paracord with a simple overhand joining the ends that has lasted for many years.

SS

1 Like
16

Thanks all - I’ve renamed the thread to include the word ‘security’ rather than stability, and added both those key words as tags, I hope this is acceptable @tyak

Fiddle security and slack security both seem like good terms, but I agree with the OP that there’s no universally used term for this kind of ‘stays tied in your pocket’ security, and it would be nice to have one.

Agree with these factors as being critical to ‘pocket fiddle resistance’.

In many older knot books especially sailing-related ones, there is mention of the word ‘flogging’ for repeated shaking of a knot in the wind, often when the knot has been used to attach a sheet to a sail. The knot might be under load or completely slack when it’s flogged. This isn’t exactly the same as ‘pocket fiddle resistance’, just mentioned it because it’s another term that’s out there.

17

The concept of a “pocket” is actually meaningless in terms of the broader definition of loading profiles.

A trouser pocket is simply a containment vessel.

I would also comment that replying to a post is now a risky process - where the slightest deviation is now apparently forbidden? This acts to restrict the ability of a person to exercise freedom to articulate thoughts and concepts for fear of retaliatory administrative action. The end result being restriction of speech.

Being fearful of adverse reaction to any deemed deviation off-topic, I now proceed with abundance of caution, good faith, and meeting the test of collegiality.

The underlying theme in this topic thread is loading profiles. That is, a state where a knot is subject to various forces which have both a direction and magnitude.

It appears that it is desired by some to hyper focus on the concept of security, while ignoring stability. In fact, both are related metrics.

In the case of a trouser pocket (or shirt pocket) functioning as a containment vessel, a knot exists inside the ‘vessel’ unharmed.

Human fingers that grasp and extract the knot from the containment vessel apply a force. This force can vary significantly and is difficult to quantify. A person (tester) attempting to set up an experiment to measure the effects of grasping and extracting a knot from a ‘pocket’ will not be able to set repeatable test parameters. That is, another tester in a different part of the world will not be able to re-create the original results of the first tester.

The act of grasping a knot causes crushing/squeezing of various segments of the knot structure.

The act of extracting a knot from a ‘pocket’ causes stretching/straightening of various knot segments.

The speed and strength of the human hand and fingers grasping the knot is highly variable.

The extraction of the knot from the ‘pocket’ is a non-zero force that is unquantifiable.

If the knot is extracted from the pocket and then re-inserted into the pocket, and then extracted from the pocket repetitively; this would be a type of cyclic loading. If a human walked a distance with a knot confined within his trouser pocket, there will be agitation, tumbling. and jostling - but it is unquantifiable.

There is no such thing as “fiddle security” - it is meaningless. In the first instance, how would a person quantify the act of “fiddling” with a knot? What forces are applied during the act of “fiddling”? Is there a force direction and magnitude with “flddling”? What actions are undertaken while “fiddling”?

Slack shaking is a meaningful concept, but again, it is not quantifiable. All a tester can do is shake the knot with varying speed and magnitude (while the knot is loosely held in the hand, without being subject to a directional load injected via the S.Part).

Flogging and whiplash are also meaningful concepts but again, cannot be quantified. Flogging is where a knot is repetitively struck against a hard surface. and whiplash is where a knot is whipped into air rather like ‘cracking’ a real whip (no contact with a hard surface).

Concepts such as slack shaking, cyclic loading, flogging, and whiplash are not documented in historical knot books. There are various reasons for this - one being that such concepts were not fully understood or researched. Ashley himself did not have a consistent and coherent definition of what a knot is, let alone defining the various geometric arrangements of rope segments (eg a hitch, a loop, a turn, chirality, etc). Although I can’t elaborate because it risks being deemed as drifting off-topic. In order to understand the effects of load on a knot, one must understand the various parts/segments of a a knot and how they interact.