So, apparently the Cow Hitch is weak. Does the Bull Hitch suddenly have respectable strength?
Just to be clear, I’m NOT talking about “security”. I am talking about “strength”, the propensity to resist breakage.
EDIT:
I said Cow here, but I really meant Girth. I never considered that someone would tie a Cow without the working end attached. A Cow tied on a sling also works. The same goes with the Bull. I meant for the working end to be attached.
i think 1 Turn bending a loaded leg of support gives deformity, and forces more 1 sided. Round Turn goes all the way around, to give about same deformity/deflection over longer area for less impact of change. Also, this type of ‘fuller’ Turn stabilizes by perhaps firming the fibers, not just placing force on 1 side of loaded leg(s).
Similar seen in Double Noose, Double Bowline etc. It is best if there is only single Turn before this mechanic, to allow more force in that part of the line to empower this mechanic. Like, a Double Noose allows this, but the host in the noose should not have a Round Turn around it, that would lower the tension in the Anchor Hitch to self that forms Double Noose.
Should be careful not to ‘tourque’ the rope fibers when making this Bull Hitch, rather allow line to lay in lacing more Naturally.
Just to clarify further, when I say “strength”, I’m not confusing that with security. Back to the original question, does the Bull Hitch make the rope less likely to break? The obvious guess is “yes”, but I have not done testing for rope breakage.
The better question is HOW MUCH stronger is a Bull Hitch over a Cow Hitch? I know it likely depends on a number of factors (e.g., object size relative to rope, etc.).
My motivation for this thread is someone who said they see know point for the Bull Hitch. Well, if the Bull Hitch is significantly stronger than the Cow Hitch, then that’s a good reason to tie the Bull Hitch!
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t’s a significant difference between “strength” and “breaking strength”. Breaking strength is a lot more specific term than strength. And no, to me it isn’t obvious that the Cow Hitch has lower breaking strength than the Bull Hitch. Even if it has, I don’t think that’s a reason alone to prefer the Bull, because the weakest link is normally not the breaking strength of the specific knot.
Who has / where is it claimed that the Cow Hitch is weak according to breaking strength? How is it tied and how is it loaded? Low breaking strength compared to what?
???
Do you mind explaining what you think is the difference between “strength” and “breaking strength”?
As far as I’m aware, “strength” of a rope or a knot is the propensity to resist breakage. From what I’ve seen, strength always is measured by the force (e.g., pounds) at which a rope or knot will break.
I do believe that these two factors also reflects the strength of a knot:
Perhaps he ability to catch a drop, says something about strength too.
“Breaking strength” says something about how much the knot will weaken the rope. As a general rule a knot will reduce the strength of a rope with 50% and splices 5%. If the rope would break at 1.000kg, it will break at 500kg when knotted and 950kg when spliced.
That’s “security” as far as I understand it. If a knot tends to capsize, then I’d say the knot lacks security to stay in the original form.
Again, that’s security. For example, a Timber Hitch has been known to give when trying to catch a drop. If we’re talking about the propensity of the rope not to break during the drop, then that’s strength.
Or we can just call that “strength”.
That's "security" as far as I understand it.You can also argue that breaking strength is security.
No we can’t. When loading one of the legs of a Clove Hitch, the knot might slip. The rope didn’t break, but you still wouldn’t call this a strong knot.
Yeah, using the words “strong” or “weak” in that instance would be sloppy language and an improper description. It would be proper to say “secure” or “insecure”.
Look. It’s common for people to jumble the terms “security” and “strength”. However, if we jumble terms when strength is actually the topic of discussion, a coherent discussion is impossible, as proven here…so much for this thread.
My point is that strength is a more broad term than just breaking strength, and we should specify “breaking strength” when it’s breaking strength we actually want to discuss.
From the original post (now modified), you stated that some had claimed that the Cow Hitch is weak. I believe you misunderstood the statement already there. Yes - in some circumstances the Cow Hitch is weak. If you load only one leg, the knot will slip even easier than the Clove Hitch. However, I haven’t seen or heard any claims that the Cow Hitch is weak in terms of breaking strength.
Proper use of the Cow Hitch would involve loading both legs (I can’t see why anyone would use a Cow Hitch when only one leg is beeing loaded). When I used the Cow in the Bale Sling Hitch, the twine broke every time at the loop knot. I used a Bowline, Double Figure Eight and Eskimo Bowline as loop knots.
I had a tug of war with one leg loading of the Bull and Cow, but the run was too close to call with hemp as material. The Cow is however more likely to slip than the Bull.
If both legs of Cow are loaded; it would be more of a Girth Hitch ?
A Clove’s strength/ strength reduction would be more dependent on it’s host/mount size in relation to rope stiffness;
but Cow more dependent on the deformity of the Standing by the ‘Backhand Turn’ IMLHO.
If can’t get both legs/eyes of Cow, into eye of device, would use 1.
Cow is also great as can be built or broken down to large ‘Backhand Hitch’ / Muenter around tree size mount.
As such can lower a load after reducing Cow to this Muenter, or before loading can use same around tree size mount/host to work /purchase line from Standing to Bitter size to tighten, can also then use the Bight of same, as 2:1 to then bend / leverage loaded Standing for even more purchase of line from Standing to Bitter side. Then serve Bitter or Bight of Bitter thru Bight of Cow to be, and lock off.
Bull would make these mechanic shifts more cumbersome, and Girth impossible as must consume both legs and then in balanced loading.
Though if something breaks, it is then insecure by being untrustworthy, insecure would generally mean if lacing could walk out of it’s lock/ walk off the job and not break.
Can ‘Bull’ / Round Turn Bight of Timber too for more strength. As we move from static to dynamic loading, then some measured slip of line and elasticity without violating line or lacing could be seen as adding more strength, in that it could take more of that type of loading. Kinda by lowering force by letting some ‘steam’ escape, from peak end of loading scale.
To me in knot lacing for loaded lines, it is all about tracing the forces flowing thru the line, and the line itself just a pipeline path. Must separate the forces into static and dynamic loading considerations.
Potential line strength would be straight; for line only resists/supports force on the single, unique inline axis, and only in the tension direction. So line can’t be leveraged directly, but can be by giving multiple inline legs, having some of fibers compressed/ not working so that full load is in higher loaded working fibers for same load as if straight, or by tightening line and thereby making resist/support on cross axis loading, deforming from the only inlineaxis a given line can be supported on etc. This is true in knot lacings; but probably easier to see in the expanded form of rigging as opposed to the same in a microcosm of a knot.
Or sumething like that!
I have no idea if the Bull hitch has the ability to resist breakage, but it definitely has more security than the cow hitch. I would surmise that the cow hitch would almost always slip before the rope breaks?? I’d trust a Bull Hitch any day over the cow hitch.
Security is not really an issue. I said Cow in the original post, but I really meant Girth. I never considered that someone would tie a Cow without the working end attached. The same goes with the Bull. I meant for the working end to be attached.
This thread is about strength (i.e., propensity not to break).
Pulls would be somewhat different around Standing, going from Round Turn pulled from 1 end, to being pulled from both ends.
But, in general; follow as Ashley is quoted here. Note, pointed out by Dr. Lehman (i believe); this would not have as much strength retention if lead in with Round Turn around spar, before ‘bulling the nose’ with a Round Turn.
i do this to Timber Hitch on perpendicular pull, not as much if made to Killick for inline /pairallell to spar pull. Ashley listed pulls inline and at right angle / perpendicular to spar in 2 separate, consecutive chapters, i think very purpsefully so.
http://www.mytreelessons.com/ks/abok_1669.swf
Can fade spar visibility with top slider.
Direct movie with bottom slider after pressing play. Drag off bottom slider to freeze vid; click or drag to continue playing vid.