That is a lot of energy and time, Thanks!
i like to track a Bowline as a sheetbend to self to form fixed eye. Then tracing how the forces change under the same load as the hitch becomes a half hitch etc.
Sure thing Derek, how did I miss that ?? here 'tis 
Sheet Bend #1431: 9#1(2), {11}, 16/17#64/65/66/67[68], 18#72/78, [35#177], [46#253], [54#335], [55#336], (64#402), (78#485/488), (79#490/492), [188#1034.5], 222#1223, [258#1410], (259#1418), [260#1424/1425a], [b]262#1431/b1433(1434)(1435)1436(1437)(1438), (263#1440), (264#1449), 265#1461, 266#1437, 270#1497/1501, 272#1522/1523, {273}, 274#1550, [316#1900], (324#1988), 324#1990, 326/327#2005, 412#2562,
<597-Barbers Knot, 602-Sailors Knot, 610-Double SB, 613-Left-hand SB, 615-Right-hand SB, 616-SB, 618-Toggled SB, 619-Triple SB, Tucked SB.>
You’re welcome TS, and thanks for all the help 
mmmm- don’t quite follow your train of thought here TS, could you explain a little more ? Thanks, Peter
[/quote]
so if this takes off, how do you propose we store and make available the results?
[/quote]
As an answer to your question Dan I could make a webpage on Blogger
to list the new and imporved index.
Th54
i think this would be a good one for The Knot Wiki Project
I’ve put the first entry on the new wiki set up by Derek Smith on http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex - see what you think–
Here let me reformat PWH’s fine articulation of his selected notation for the Improved Index.
name #aaaa ::> Knot Name and number for main entry: e.g. Sheet Bend #1431
pg#aaaa ::> Primary forms of the knot including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot.
b[/b] ::> Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend & weavers knot, where the search term is used.
Other secondary forms may be found where the search term is not used. Any such found can be added later.
[pg#aaaa] ::> References to the knot in other entries.
{pg} ::> References to the knot in the general text, page no. only.
pg/pg#aaaa ::> Where text and diagram occur on facing pages.
pg@aaaa/aaaa/…/aaaa/ ::> Where several #s on a page refer to the same knot.
Combinations of the above may be used where appropriate.
There were at the bottom of the msg. above some citations using the ’ < … > ’ delimiters,
for at least some occurrences within the Glossary!?
“Entries ordered by page number” = “ordered by prg.# ?”
(How could it differ? Well, of two competitor’s, they might be on same pg, one later/earlier;
of tied in 1st occurrence, separated in later one.)
Looks like y’all have something brewing!
Wish i had more time.
i think it would be more useful; and gear to a much larger audience (as a prototype); if there was some visual aid(and in a table). Being a knot cypher wiki; i think it should have at least a knot cypher on the page if not a picture.
If you are real hard up; you can use any of mine Basic Knots or.. More Simpleness or anything else; even just as place holders to lay out the format etc.
i always wanted to continue all that stuff; and the Flash Animations; but when the Hard Drive crashed; i lost a lot of Flash projects; including the pre-maid pieces of lacings; t assemble them and blocks of code to make knots; now i have to find time to start alllllllllllllllllllll over!
This is what i was talking about de-scribing knots off of similar constructions and then understanding the parts and their mechanical functions better. Sheet Bend to Bowline. Now i more properly see and name the Sheet as converting it’s Hitch into a Half Hitch to make Bowline/Sheet Bend to self to form eye. Then also make similar sense out of Anchor to self to form eye is Strangle/Noose whatever; Clove to self is Buntline; then try to understand the mechanics in them; by compairing properties between similar lacings.
Thanks Dan , it’s a lot clearer in this format. I shall apply this to the wiki as well.
The ’ < … > ’ delimiters include all the references I found to the knot or other forms in the glossary and index just for completeness and in case following those takes you in some new direction … If there are more that I missed please let me know.
Ordered by page number - could have differed by putting all the primary forms first followed by secondary forms , then referential entries and so on - I felt that would mean too much ‘to-ing and fro-ing’ for someone wanting to look at all the references, so opted for ‘by page number’ instead. It’s simple enough I think, to pick out only those you really want from the current order?
Cheers, Peter H
Oh, thanks, I see.
Hmmm, would one really want to have to hunt through the arguably not-so-obvious
differences in notation in order to locate the most (only, in most purposes!) meaningful
occurrences? I think not.
I think that the principle uses of the Index will be to learn about the entity in a direct,
obvious sense; only someone doing some more pedantic, who-knows-what-purpose
search will care that in prg. #1537 (say) there is a side comment “like the Sheet Bend”
or “… along with the Sheet bend”, methinks. There is some merit to having the key
citations forward; and maybe to having a predicatable, set order of all, which I think
goes some way to help the different classifcations of citation be recognized. (For
otherwise, it is they–the sorts of references–that come in a back’n’forth order.)
I.e., giving the information thus:
Here is detailed info directly: #47, #276, #277, #1820
here is more coincidental mention: …
here is …
I think is a good presentation, got essentially by reference-type ordering.
Ordering by pagination seems more mountain skyline peak’n’valley jumping.
–and having to visually discriminate between graphic symbols ‘[’,‘(’, ‘{’, … .
(This is one advantage to the Im.In. over pdf Searching: presenting
a value assessment of the citation!)
How do others think an Improved Index will look?
??
???
Well Dan , I was in two minds about how to order the thing, and it’s probably because I am pedantic that I opted for the pagination with symbols version! Don’t knock it tho- pedantic is good in some areas- radio voice technique for example, and it’s probably only pedants could be bothered to do an IM.IN. at all! So some degree of pedantry kind of goes with the territory Nonetheless if any body else would like to vote on how would be best for the majority I’m happy to concur- in fact I’m almost convinced already - those multitudinous brackets do get a bit fuzzy after a while! When I get some time I might put up both versions to see what you all think- or A.N.Other could do it if you want to?
Cheers, Peter
Hi All,
As promised, here is the “ordered by relevance” version of the index for the sheet bend. I have to agree Dan that it’s a lot easier to use (and produce) than my first attempt! This along with the Bowline and Reef or Square Knot will shortly be appearing on the wiki at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex . Anybody’s welcome to join the fun and do your favourite knot or three- there’s plenty to choose from ! Special bonus points for finding any missed citations on these or any other entries.
Regards to All,
Peter
Sheet Bend #1431
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.
Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.
Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.
References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.
References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.
A simple change, yet such a vast improvement in clarity and usability, this now promises to be a valuable index.
As an index, is it intended to include pg No.s for the references or will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index to find the page to look at?
I notice Peter that you have been getting to grips with editing the wiki. Could I suggest that a little of this ingenuity be spent thinking about how best to structure the information on the wiki. Now the individual knot information structure is being rationalised, we can expect to start to see the results posted onto the wiki, and before long hopefully there will be a number of knots indexed there, so some thought as to how they will be presented would be valuable. Will each knot be given its own page linked to a master index on the front page? or will all the results simply be listed in one huge page?
I have put a sample knot page together for the Sheet Bend here http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/Sheet+Bend
Derek
Thanks Derek,
Re page numbers, Do you think they are needed in this index- it seems easy enough to open the ABOK almost anywhere and find the #number directly? Admittedly some of the low numbers are a bit scattered in the text so maybe for them- but once into the real ‘meat’ the numbers flow pretty well. What do others think? Also re “will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index”- my ABOK has no reference to the #number in the index at all, it’s page numbers only there- I envisage people doing as above when using the improved ‘Super Index’- just diving in at any page and locating by #number only. Open to suggestions tho –
Regrds, Peter
Gees - my myopic mind. I forgot that the whole book is indexed by ABoK No.
Don’t mind me, I’m slow but catch up eventually.
Keep up the good work.
Derek
Good Morning All,
Hope this finds you all well and happy, and ready for some work! You can find a couple more entries on the Index here at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex .
At the rate of progress so far I doubt if I will complete the job before I go to meet the Great KnotMeister, (hopefully not for another 50 years or so) so please, please think about whether you can do an entry or two? Many hands make light work and all that- I think we’ve just about got the format right now but all suggestions are welcome. It’s easy enough once you get into it, and if you need any tools or advice to get started please contact me or Derek.
Yours,
Peter H.
Hi Folks,
Thought I’d put the listings up here as well as the wiki seeing as this topic seems to have died. Did I upset you all with my “Pedant Rant” I wonder? If so - Sorry Dan et all. Didn’t mean to offend.
So here they are- I really would appreciate some comments and advice as to omissions and errors, or suggestions for improvements, or even to say how wonderful it is.
Here they are -
Cheers, Peter H
Bowline #1010
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #71, #1010, #1014, #1015, #1716, #1783, #1787, #1788, #2549, #2550, #2551, #2586, #2587.
Secondary forms eg. Double B, B on a bight etc: #1011, #1012, #1013, #1016, #1034.5, #1057, #1058, #1072, #1074, #1075, #1080, #1081, #1082, #1083, #1087, #1117, #1137, #1848, #2564.
Practical applications of the knot in its various forms: With the Bowline, its original use is so integral to its name and nature that I have included such instances in bold even where the bowline knot itself is not used.
#155, #157, #158, #162, #163, #202, #265, #266, #267, #287, #332, #338, #407, #471, #1226, #1455, #1475, #1476, #1499, #1507, #1508, #1509, #1514, #1544, #1724, #1726, #1842, #1846, #1849? #1850, #1853, #1861, #1882, #1916, #1917, #1926, #2052, #2066, #2071, #2080, #2090, #2160, #2168, #2191, #3826.
References in other entries: #143, #1024, #1078, #1079, #1084, #1114, #1138, #1431, #1845, #1874, #1987, #2067, #2608, #2612, #2837, #2842, #2843, #3407, #3434.
References in the general text: page no. top middle or bottom:
p39b, p185-several, p193t, p203b.
Reef or Square knot #1204, #1205
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #74, #75, #76, #77, #460, #462, #487, #1204, #1205, #1441, #1547, #1549, #2575.
Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #1211, #1212, #1217, #1218.
Practical applications: #226, #263, #390, #404, #405, #447, #476, #664, #1267, #1402, #1403, #1404, #1513, #1757, #1893, #1899, #2064, #2076, #2086, #2096, #2098, #2104, #2114, #2209, #2402, #2406, #2412, #2413, #2449, #2552, #2796, #2797, #2856, #3096, #3126, #3130, #3267, #3271, #3379, #3413, #3439, #3444, #3448, #3449, #3452, #3458, #3498, #3773, #3799-3812.
References in other entries: #47, #80-81, #185, #186, #251, #413, #449-450-451, #461, #463, #1168, #1207, #1419, #1425a, #1480, #2012, #2523, #2688.
References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p68t, p75t, p220t, p273m, p399- A whole chapter on square knotting.
Sheet Bend #1431
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.
Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.
Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.
References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.
References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.
Clove Hitch #1176 to #1180 and #1773 to #1779.
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #11, #53, #1176 to #1180, #1773 to #1779, #2541 to #2548
Secondary forms:
Practical applications: #149, #198, #201, #204, #212, #262, #315, #318?, #346, #368, #400, #421, #432, #437, #441, #442, #443, #444, #445, #467, #506, #1161, #1229, #1245, #1270, #1271, #1272, #1273, #1275, #1276, #1670, #1671, #1672, #1739, #1805, #1814, #1869, #1887, #1998, #2040, #2079, #2102, #2128, #2149, #2150, #2159, #2162, #2180, #2825, #3038, #3039, #3097, #3123, #3177, #3322, #3331, #3435, #3436, #3437, #3782, #3787, #3792, #3799
Fancy Work: #2412, #2486, #2501, #2507, #2509, #2516, #2620
Other Knots started with a Clove Hitch: #576, #1034, #1092, #1140, #1693, #2000, #2052
References in other entries: #48, #197, #244, #355, #390, #1268, #1728/9, #2011, #2088, #3095, #3098, #3323, #3390
References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p213title;m, p283b, p301b, p302t, p407b
Hi Everybody,
As you can tell this is taking a long time to get anywhere. I would appreciate some feedback so I know if it’s worth carrying on.
What do you think of the show so far? Is it of any use to you? Is the present format OK, or could it be better? Would you like to help?
Answers on a posting please to this forum.
PwH.
Hi
I’m the one that’s been plugging away with ABOKs. I’ve been tying the knots and putting them on index cards with the “knot name and number”. I am realizing how many knots have no name and are compilations of other knots in one order or another.
Do you have access to an ABOK on line that you can do searches for certain words? Going page by page is a Herculean task. And it seem Mr. Ashley does a lot of "similar to knot ‘such and such’ " or "looks like knot ‘such and such’ ". How are you handling those? I guess in the bottom part “other references”.
I really think that this is helpful. Because in my earlier days I never used this book because there were so many places to look to figure out one knot. If I had I probably would have found many of the answers to my questions. For example: The True-Lover’s Knot, Diamond Knot, Japanese Knot and Butterfly Knots seemed to have been tied a different way in each book. And this summer when I was teaching “Knots 101” at the club, I want to find as many ways to teach the bowline and the clove hitch as possible.
Thanks for your efforts. I’d be glad to help when I get finished with my self appointed task of ABOK. I’m skipping some of the really decorative knots that must be tied on the cork board. I do a few and then move on to the next chapter. I’m into Chapter 12 now.
Lynn