The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008

General Discussion
41

I am sure that this is a most useful exercise and the sort of information collated so far shows just how useful it will be. I do have a reservation about organising the information and making it available electronically. Ideally the data should be organised into records such that the user can extract the information to suit them - this probably means that the number of records required would be well in excess of the number of knots in Ashley but it can be started and tested with one knot (eg the bowline) and built from there over time - it’s also easier to correct and update in this form. I haven’t as yet looked at a practical way of organising the info - a spreadsheet is probably as good a tool as any for prototyping but I do think it would be useful spending time looking at data management as well as the actual data itself.

Happy to help in any way I can (I do know more about data management than I do knot tying but unfortunately that’s not saying much!)

Since posting this I’ve thought some more about the issue and therefore added this bit (the above is a bit cryptic perhaps). Although presentation is important this comes at the end rather than the beginning - although it’s vital to know what you’re aiming to provide. The cross references etc will fall out of an analysis of Ashley automatically if you record the basic knot data in a simple form - clearly there has been a lot of effort expended so far but as progess is made it may become very difficult to sustain ie you can read forward to where a clove hitch is repeated or used as the basis or start of another knot but when you index the later knot how do you refer back to the origin without a lot of effort again? I appreciate that this may still be as clear as mud but rather than confuse the issue any further I’ll await comments.

42

I recently discovered an online version of ABOK. I have since converted most of it to a “word document”. I also converted it to a searchable .pfd file. I’m planning to use this for my own referencing only, but if I can be of any help in searching certain names or knots, let me know. I’ve been working on this all week and must get back to life at hand. Boy spell checker went crazy with this task; I guess when this was written there were more compound word, like “sailmaker, jamproof and lacemaking” not to mention all of the sailing terminology.
Lynn

43

Hi Lynn & Sweeney et All

Yes I do have PDF version of ABOK courtesy of one who shall remain nameless for legal reasons. I also own a hardback paper copy ( had it for years) so I don’t feel guilty about the PDF. I would be unsure about sharing the file with anyone who doesn’t already own the book as I think it may infringe copyright? Are there any leagle eagles out there can tell us about that?

Fantastic work Lynn, I couldn’t find it online myself! You’ve now got the tools to help with this index project if you wish, it is too much for anyone (well, me anyway) to attempt alone, so if you can help that would be most encouraging.

Sweeney- I’m very interested in what you can do with data records- I know almost nothing about the subject beyond that they exist!! Please tell me more?

As ever, anyone want to help? Just a few knots each will see it off, all the book for one or two people is too much to even attempt. How about it Dan?

Regards, Peter H

44

Hi Peter

I’ll try and keep this short and non-techie. A data record is a structured set of information. If it related to a person it might contain name, gender, marital status, date of birth, address, phone, e-mail etc. A collection of these records on a computer enables selection of people by age for example or where they live from postcode (or equivalent) - mailing lists are a typical example. With Ashley one could take all knots considered relevant (ie it may be sensible to exclude the complex fancy knots at least in the first pass), and record the following:

Knot number
Name*
Original knot entry number (for such as a clove hitch which appears many times)
Type (from a predetermined list to make it searchable eg hitch, bend but not restricted to a ‘purist’ view!)
Purpose (as this number in Ashley)
Knot no it starts with
Variation from standard knot (text - add anything)
Comments (again text)

I must stress that this is only a sample to explain what you might do but from these details you can, (in no particular order):

reorder the list in any order eg name then number;
find any knot by number or name*;
extract a group of knots such as the ‘Knot no it starts with’ or the knot type;
transfer the data to a word processor or other program in a form for printing (needs some work but is not that difficult or time consuming as long as ambition is kept in
check);
add more detail to the individual records over time.

One plus point is that many people can type part of the data each with a brief guide as to what to do (you don’t need any particular software - even Windows Notepad would do) and send it to a file administrator for building the records file and any simple editing eg obvious spelling errors. Later corrections/additions are easy for one or more administrators.

A final point - over time new knots could be added to the list as long as diagrams etc they were available from a consistent source eg the IGKT website and number say 5000 upwards to separate then clearly from Ashley - a (very) long term aim I would think.

Hope this helps.

Barry

*Footnote - one knot may have many names but the easiest solution is to add the same number several times with each name and a “Duplicate” field with a “Y” to aid searching no other details are needed as they are shown against the first occurence of the number (identiifiable because ‘Duplicate’ has “N” in it). Which name is considered the ‘original’ is not worth agonising over as they are all there.

45

Here’s the latest. Why the sheepshank? Well why not? It just so happens I wanted a variant ( the sword knot) for a shoulder strap for my ditty bag. Not at all a traditional ditty bag, actually a modified electricians tool bag/bucket, but I quite like it.

The Sheepshank, FKA shepshanke or sheeps feete (p207)

Primary forms of the sheepshank #1152, #1153, to #1166, a whole series of SS.

Practical Work #202, #238, #1088, #3093,

Fancy Work #2297, #2298, #2299, #2432,

Trick tyings #2566, #2567, #2568,

Knots starting with : none

Mentioned in other entries #172, #366, #1146, #1873, #2428,

Mentioned in the general text p11b, p74b, p195t, p207m&b, p383m,

Also Indexed under: Half SS, Handcuff SS, Navy SS, SS and Shepshanke

Happy Christmas Everybody!

P.S. now working on the RT with and without 2HH- a fascinating tool, the RT and further evolutions being one of the most powerful rope formations known to (insert your prefered personal denominator) man.

46

The Round Turn (in all its incarnations) + & - 2HH.

Primary forms of the knot: #36, #37, #41, #42, #1718, #1720, #1721, #1732, #1784, #1785, #1792, #1793, #1794, #1834 to #1838, #1883, #1910.

Practical Work: #162, #173, #200, #252, #407, #467, #478, #506, #534, #1013, #1267, #1270, #1273, #1275, #1612, #1742, #1752, #1772, #1939, #2024, #2102, #2108, #3090, #3091, #3095, #3097, #3099, #3121, #3124, #3145, #3271, #3304, #3314, #3315, #3361, #3378, #3399, #3403, #3410, #3432, #3455 to #3462 (various whippings), #3473, #3526, #3831.

Fancy Work (starting with or including RT): #476, #539, #542, #543, #727, #1006, #2248, #2255, #2257, #2259, #2889, #2890, #3509, #3510, #3542, #3544, #3552, #3553, #3554, #3619.

Tricks with RTs: #2547, #2584, #2596, #2597, #2604.

Knots starting with or including RT: #183, #336, #515, #539, #542, #1035, #1040, #1086, #1090, #1091, #1093, #1130, #1131, #1168(1167), #1169, #1176, #1177, #1186 to #1189, #1230, #1238, #1239, #1251, #1317, #1318, #1689, #1701, #1722 to #1724, #1791, #1840 to #1842, #1854, #1899, #1994, #2019, #2732, #2780.

Mentioned in other entries: #213(211), #390, #1140, #1457, #1513, #1643, #1657, #1669, #1681, #1716, #1846, #1970, #1981, #2028, #2133, #2179, #2774, #3555, #3556.

Mentioned in general text: p335t.

Mentioned in Glossary: Bring up with a RT : Snub, to~ (RT).

Also Indexed under: Figure 8 hitch, Overhand RT~, RT and ~, RT~, Seized RT, Snaking- RT, Three RT?s, Two RT?s, Underhand RT~.

A bit of a marathon I know, but I have tried to include all mentions of the RT in the book in whatever form and application. No doubt the classifications are somewhat arbitrary and subject to opinion, but I?ve placed them where I see them fall. If I did it again they?d probably be different! Take a look and see what you think. I think I?ll try and find something with about 5 entries for the next one!

47

Just to let you all know that this project has taken a different turn, and the info is currently being encoded in what will eventually be a searchable database online. See the same topic in the computing pages for the mindnumbing details. I will try to get up to date info posted here from time to time, but I think the new twist will be well worth waiting for. Watch this space!

48

Yes, this is an old thread of mine, which has mutated and gone …
– well, I’m not sure (but into both a different thread AND category!).

My hope was to convert the not-user-friendly Index of [u]ABOK into
something much more helpful, as well as accurate. The PwH post I’m
annotating here shows a great effort to improve the Index; Peter has
gone a bit astray in grouping so much under one original Index
entry (viz., “Round turn”), but one can see how that is a help, e.g.,
in the case of “Seized round turn” – which one might not think to
check for, and in the original appears under the "S"s of course.

Below, I have partly annotated PwH’s collection by underscoring the
original entries of the Index, to highlight how much more (and better
arranged) information has been drawn out. (But as time runs out for
me this late night, I’m quitting before fully making all of the underscores
needed, so the difference is here exaggerated – but I might Edit this
post later, to rectify that in giving the full picture.)

The change to making some Excel work which is the subject of the
mutated thread resulted in grouping by chapter (work, i.e.),
whereas in my original plan the work might be grouped by letter
(of the Index) .

In contrast, [u]ABOK has:

Round turn, 12, 641; hitched, 304; on belaying pin, 285; on tree limb, 77 Round turn and BUNTLINE HITCH, 309 Round turn and EYE, 445 Round turn and HALF HITCH, 76, 309 Round turn and SLIPPED HALF HITCH, 303 Round turn and TWO HALF HITCHES, 296, 303, 309, 314, 316 Round TURN BOWLINE KNOTS 186 Round turn lashing, 535 Round turn snaking, 518 Round turn stitch, 561

–dl*