The Shutters are Coming Down

General Discussion
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It started with Willeke ‘banning’ long and boreing posts.

It was followed by Webmistress excluding animated content.

Squarerigger came in next with the proposal to lock access by passwords.

Now Gordon - who initially welcomed the Wiki experiment and agreed to the use of the IGKT logo on the site - has done an about face in an email to me and now wants all contact with the wiki to be terminated and references to the IGKT to be withdrawn.

When the Wiki experiment was proposed, I made the point that the Wiki environment would seem almost anarchy. It is a vibrant, empowering medium, but it has posed problems for TPTB. They cannot complain about content and they certainly cannot stop access as they might wish.

To some, the Wiki has been a success. Many have contributed ideas and the service already runs to 48 pages with some innovative topics, all in a matter of a few days.

so we are now faced with a problem. The experiment was started in order to help the IGKT achieve its mission statements. If the IGKT i.e TPTB within the IGKT no longer wish the Wiki to be utilised in reference to the IGKT, then should the service be terminated?

Wikis, once started, tend to take on lives of their own. If people find them of value, they stay alive and continue to grow. If people no longer find them of value, then quite simply - they die.

I guess that the right move in this situation is to see what you the users want - live or die - after all, wikis are what we make them.

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Dear Derek,

How many flies do you attract with vinegar?

If something is truly wanted, sure you will get all the people there who want to be there. If not, …

Just having an interesting site does not make it right, in and of itself. Look at the way in which your “truths” have been distorted by you…

It started with Willeke 'banning' long and boreing posts.

It was followed by Webmistress excluding animated content.

Squarerigger came in next with the proposal to lock access by passwords.

Willeke did not ban - she suggested editing.
Webmistress did not exclude - she sought compliance with law
I did not propose locking anyone out (see my reply to your diatribe)

You need to look at your own position, get a hold of something closer to reality and then start again…

Lindsey

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Willeke did not ban - she suggested editing. Webmistress did not exclude - she sought compliance with law I did not propose locking anyone out (see my reply to your diatribe)
True, Willeke did not ban. She is an excellent moderator and she suggested editing - backed up with the threat that failure to comply would lead to the return of automatic restriction in post length. That is why I used single quotes around the word banning to indicate that it was not literal, but that it was 'effective banning'.

True, the Webmistress was following the letter of the law. But in doing so she clumsily ‘threw the baby out with the bathwater’. This was a tiny transgression of UK guidelines. When this site desperately needs novel input, such as the two animated sequeces involved, then it is far more important to look for means to ensure that future posts follow guidelines, rather than closing the door to this form of communication.

True, you did not propose locking anyone out, you simply asked if it could be done. You did not add ‘that you did not want this to happen’, so the implication was that your request was for it, in fact, to happen. It would have been reasonable for the moderators to take this comment to mean that an important member and contributor had asked for the site to be secure, and for them to consider this in their decisions on managing this site.

I will not pass comment on your sarchasm re ‘flies’ nor your inuendo that I should ‘get a grip’.

We all work from our personal agenda and we all have differing perspectives. My perspective is that TPTB do not want change to happen which they have not innitiated and as a consequence are bringing down the shutters on the sudden flurry of interest and activity that contributors are producing.

The message that I am offering is that evolution on the web is far faster than in the organic world. Put simply, adapt to the food chain or die. And the biggest, the most important part of that adaptation is to ‘see’ what the foodchain wants.

“Wake up - read the signs”

You stated that “If something is truly wanted, sure you will get the people there who want to be there”. I agree.

I want the IGKT to become something that at present it is not - so I am here to help it make the change. You coming in? The waters fine!!

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As Lindsey said, I did not ban.
I have no powers to ban long posts and would not want to either.

But I do feel that long posts should be the exceptions rather than the norm.

And for the wiki, the IGKT is under the English/British/European law. And has to comply to that.
We can have a wiki doing the same things weather it is called the ‘IGKT WIKI’ or the ‘KNOT WIKI, (made with an aim to be part of the IGKT in the future)’.
So if the IGKT is not yet ready to accept the wiki, let them doubt for a bit.

We can go on making/filling the wiki so it is ready for the guild by the time they are ready to accept it.

And about animated information:
You can make the information and place it on the web, make a link on this forum, with a little warning telling it is flash or whatever, and we can open it directly from this forum.
That means that the people will only see the info if they click on the link. But if you want to read the reactions it will not be there blinking at you.
As I said before, I liked the flash bits.

Willeke

While writing this post above post was put on the forum. I like to add one more thing.
I did use the treat restricting the length of the posts, but that was mainly to get attention.
If I had made a nice request it would, most likely, have been ignored, now everybody did fall over to reply.)
W

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Willeke,

Thank you for your perception of a balanced way of moving forward.

Your thoughts on ‘Preparing a Wiki for possible later adoption’ and of linking to animations with suitable warnings are excellent. Perhaps the admins could propose a simple text warning that the Guild would be happy with - to be tagged onto any flash link?

Also, could I ask the admins to consider what Wiki issues they feel might act against adoption. Early addressing of any such issues will remove any need for later compromise or antagonism of contributors.

Derek

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i can’t think of any knot books without pictures. :-/

At least even knot books as i’ve known them until the last decade had pencil drawings or black and white pictures of same lines bent to each other to try to decode apart etc.

But if you want to be a leader and /or really lend any understanding you must do better than that; and not just ask folks to dig through your archives for the links to these things. Especially if you want to legitimize the name given to this space.

Fair access is a good thing; but shall ye legislate braille instructions inside open high voltage circuit boxes next? We now need posted numerous examples written by those that care for the blind, of how to illustrate technical blueprints and animations in comprehendable words; that don’t reach exhaustable length; yet can guide all to the same point.

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Derek - here is another chance to READ what my email said - verbatum. Please read what I wrote not what you wanted to read.
Hi All,
The so called “problem” is that a few people have gone off in “automatic pilot” creating and proposing all sorts of “good ideas” which are perported to be that of the IGKT. The Guild is run by a Council, not by one person and certainly not on the whim of the day, which is why I have asked Dan to slow down. As your (those that are members) Internet representative on the Council, I will put the idea up for discussion at the next Council meeting, which is on 10th June, until then I suggest that you all just slow down and take stock, before filling a wiki with information that is (a) not secure - as it can be contributed to, changed, adulterated or even deleted by seemingly anyone. And (b) Not yet on an approved IGKT site. Remove the IGKT from the title and of course you can all do as you wish with it.

That said, I do support the initiative, but it will have to be under controlled access before I would add any work to it.

Gordon
IGKT Librarian & Council Member

I don’t call that going back on anything.

Gordon

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Derek,
I missed one thing from my last posting - I said that you could use the IGKT Logo provided you put the word ‘Member’ under it - as any paid up member of the Guild is entitled to do.
I have since learned that you are not a member - that is why you cannot use the logo - not me changing my mind.

Gordon

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Do you mean Gordon, that where you said that you were quoting your email VERBATUM, that the quote you posted was in fact NOT VERBATUM, because you found that you had missed out on a little bit.

But when you ‘found out’ that I am not a member of the IGKT you felt you had an excuse for that bit too so you admitted to having left it out of your VERBATUM quotation of your email.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.”

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Hi Derek,

I guess that, maybe if you are not an IGKT member, I would ask (I should ask anyway, member or not),

  1. Why are you so interested in having a knotting page?
  2. Are you a knotter?
  3. What kind of knotting do you do?
  4. Got any pictures?

On the face of it, you are putting up some pretty strong arguments for having the Wiki page - it’s free, you all get to contribute, it accepts Flash, it is a collaborative effort so it will become accurate (?) - anything I missed?

Inquiring minds need to know!

Lindsey

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Lindsey,

I opened my very first post to this forum on page 2 of the Mission thread. I believe that it answers most of your questions so I will copy it again here:-

[i]Squarerigger and Nautile,

Rarely have I read such clarity of perception and structured determination to promote a worthy topic out beyond the closed ranks of the converted. Bravo gentlemen, I support your innitiative and offer my direct support.

I am a ‘hobby knotter’ (there is not much call for knots in the laboratory) and am not at present a member of the IGKT. When I first came across the IGKT website, I was not unduly impressed, nor convinced that the Guild had much for me. I hung around the forum, but, because of its failure to include images, again I learned little from the discussions between skilled knotters who’s descriptions frequently went way over my head.

And then came this post. Yes, to those within the IGKT all may seem on track, but to an outsider, there is virtually no attraction to join in. The site and its content are not ‘sticky’ and there is virtually nothing to attract newbies into the hobby. It was good to read that the Mission of the IGKT actually encompasses the aspects I intrinsically feel that it should include.

So, in an attempt to start to turn desire into reality I have started a Wiki which will allow anyone to contribute to any of the mission objectives in a flexible and unfettered manner.

To all:-

To view the Wiki, go to http://igkt.pbwiki.com you can read any of the content already entered as a starting point. If you would like to then add or edit content yourselves, simply log in. Enter your name, email address and the password which is igkt

Give it a try and let me know if you think this is a tool which can be used to promote the Guild Mission.

Any questions just drop me an email

Derek Smith[/i]

And to answer your fourth question - yes I do have pictures - go see the Wiki.

I hope that I am not ‘putting up an argument’ for the Wiki. It is only a tool which I offered to see if it could help take the Guild towards the goal of achieving its Mission Statement. Achieving that is going to be hard work, particularly without any means of direct participation and collaboration available through the formal website or even the forum, which although excellent, does not allow images or ‘multi input collaboration’.

A Wiki is only a web tool, but it is one which looks like it might facilitate much of the initial ‘what if’ colaborative work. It also encourages people to collaborate rather than argue, which tends to be the prime theme for a forum. So No, I am not fighting for the IGKT to use the Wiki tool, I am simply offering it as one method of circumventing some of the hurdles that lay between where we are now and your final goal.

You Asked.

12

Hi Derek,

Great! Thanks for the reminder - I had forgotten and shame on me for that. I’ll be interested to see where these discussions go with the IGKT Council members and the AGM outcome this year. I did ask the question and I have gotten some great response - all of it! The response I have heard and read has been passionate, some positive, some not and all of it very helpful. There have been some extremely illuminating conversations and I am really encouraged to think that we evidently do have a truly caring group.

I am going to take a back seat for a while and see what else develops. I’m ready to move forward, whichever way that is…

Lindsey

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I want the IGKT to become something that at present it is not - so I am here to help it make the change. You coming in? The waters fine!!

“I want your organisation, to which I do not belong, to become something it currently is not, and I’m Here To Help.” (My paraphrase.)

Eh?

If a non-member of any organisation wandered in off the street to a meeting hosted by the organisation and said this in person … I can guess the likely reaction.

I’m hanged if I can see a problem in Fairlead’s request that the logo not be used on the wiki site. I’ve been in his shoes in other organisations, and I agree that even if the web site is the greatest thing to hit knotting since the ABOK, nothing on the site or even in the pathname should imply that it is connected to the IGKT whilever anyone can amend it and it is not sponsored / sanctioned / vetted by the IGKT itself. It’s in no way a criticism of the idea or the content. The IGKT shouldn’t receive either kickings or kudos for work it hasn’t done. It’s just plain “truth in advertising”.

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Hi Slipjig,

When you put it like that you make a good point, but put it back into context and you might then see my point.

Yes, I want the Guild to become something that it is not, but I only want it to become what the Guild already aspires to - that is - to achieve its own Mission Statement. It’s not MY mission statement and I don’t suggest in any way changing the Guilds Mission Statement, simply that I agree with others that I would like the Guild to change from what it is now, to what the Guild itself says it wants to be.

Correct, I am not a member. But If the Guild became what its Mission Statement aspires to, then it becomes an organisation that I would WANT to be a member of. I happen to think that is worth putting some effort into to help that happen, because I and others would benefit in the long run.

Finally, the Guild logo on the Wiki. I agree with you, it should not be there until the Guild formally decide to have a Wiki or formally adopt the present one IF they feel that it is of value to the Guild. The Wiki in its present form does NOT have the Guild logo on it and it clearly states on the opening page that it is an experiment to see if the Wiki tool can be of assistance to contributors to focus their views and actions towards taking the Guild towards its Mission goals. If it helps - GREAT, if it is of no use, then nothing lost. It is only an offer of help towards achieving a joint goal.

That I think is a key issue. ACTION.

We can all sit and flap jaw through this forum, it exercises the fingers, and shoots a little ego, but it tends not to get too much actually DONE. The Wiki is ACTION. I have actually DONE something towards helping the Guild move one step closer towards its Mission Statement. Others have started to put content into the Wiki, again they are DOING something - might be right , might be wrong, but it is something that the rest of us can build on, modify, improve etc.

The Wiki is password protected, so although anyone with an interest in knotting matters can read it, only people who have read this forum and discovered the password can edit and contribute to the site. If they have read this forum, and explicity, the thread on Guild Mission, they are likely to be pretty well motivated to achieve the goal. Trouble makers are not so likely to go to the trouble of trawling through all six pages of posts unless they have an interest in knots and the Guild. Besides, its a Wiki, anything that is changed is all saved, so it can all be restored at the click of a button.

Wikis work because they tend to have a lot of contributors and only a few ‘spoilers’ the contributors quickly spot trouble and restore it. Faced with that the ‘spoilers’ tend to loose interest pretty quickly. Think of it as a Graffiti proof wall where the spray paint runs off before it dries, the taggers soon give up and go find more fun places to play.

We all have different perspectives, and this is mine. I am only offering to help - is that a bad thing?

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We all have different perspectives, and this is mine. I am only offering to help - is that a bad thing?

Hi Derek.

No, it isn’t a bad thing.

It just seems to me that in the manner of these recent discussions, a bit of unnecessary heat and noise is being directed at some level-headed volunteers who, because they are at the coalface, are able to point out ramifications that need to be thought through before change can occur. I have been in their shoes and have dealt with the balancing act between action/change and the ramifications thereof, which are not always obvious until after they blow up in your face. Patience sometimes is a euphemism for doing nowt, but other times it saves a bit of pain down the track.

Thanks for the reply.