Tricorn Loop slipped in a 6 mm accessory cord during practical testing

[APPOLARI]

Hello everyone,

I would like to share an observation from a series of practical tests I recently performed.

I tested the Tricorn Loop using a 6 mm Gilmonte accessory cord (CE/UIAA certified, rated at 10 kN). The cord has a kernmantle construction and is relatively firm, not compressing as easily as softer cords.

My test was not limited to simply hanging a load from the loop. I also applied strong tension by pulling the two legs of the loop apart in opposite directions in an attempt to identify any potential weakness, somewhat simulating a very high load.

In several trials, the Tricorn Loop slipped approximately 3 cm before I stopped the test because it appeared that further slipping might eventually lead to failure.

My impression is that the stiffness of the cord may have contributed to the result. Because the cord does not compress easily, the turns of the knot may not have been able to tighten and grip each other as effectively as they would in a softer rope.

For comparison, I tested a few other loop knots under the same conditions:

• Zeppelin Loop: no noticeable slippage.

• Angler’s Loop (Perfect Loop): no noticeable slippage.

• Bowline: slight initial movement, then it stabilized.

Has anyone else observed similar behavior with the Tricorn Loop when tied in firm accessory cords or other relatively stiff ropes?

I would be very interested in hearing about other experiences or test results.

Thank you.

[agent_smith]

Hello ‘Appolari’

The so-called ‘Tricorn loop’ is actually published in Ashley at illustration #1029. Ashely referred to it as a decorative loop. There is a reddit discussion about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/knots/comments/1skv89x/tricorn_loop/

Knots always seem to get ‘re-invented’ and then renamed.

#1029 is actually a fixed ‘eye’ knot. This eye knot is based on a simple overhand knot - and therefore it will jam under heavy loading. If resistance to jamming is an important metric - then this eye knot would be a poor choice. If jamming is of low importance to you, then fine.

Gilmonte are a Slovakian rope manufacturer but actually a part of ‘Edelrid’ (Germany). They have high tenacity cords and aramid cords.
Link: Pomocné šnúry

The ‘slipping’ you refer to you in your ‘test’ is highly dependent on a number of factors. Without knowing the precise details and parameters of your test, it is very difficult to comment.

Testing:

In terms of transverse loading of the ‘eye’ (what some refer to as ‘ring’ loading), it remains stable. It is also stable in a regular axial loading profile.

All knots undergo core compression and the various rope segments projecting out of the core are extruded. So it depends on what you mean by ‘slippage’. I normally mark knot test specimens with a permanent marker pen to provide a reference frame. Load can either be applied ‘slow pull’ (steady increase in force) or dynamically (sudden shock load).

There are 8 different Zeppelin eye knots + one other derived from Ashley #582 - so its hard to know which ‘eye knot’ you are referring to.
Same with ‘Bowline’ - there are many different types of ‘Bowline’ - I could assume you might mean #1010?

[APPOLARI]

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

I am not a professional rigger or knot researcher. I am simply a knot enthusiast who enjoys studying knots and the engineering principles behind them.

The purpose of my test was not to criticize the Tricorn Loop, but rather to explore its behavior under different conditions because I found the knot interesting.

In my experience, the Tricorn Loop performed very well in softer and more compressible ropes. The slippage I reported was observed only when using a relatively stiff and smooth 6 mm Gilmonte accessory cord (10 kN, EN/UIAA certified).

My impression is that the stiffness of the cord reduced the compression between the turns of the knot, which may have contributed to the movement I observed.

I appreciate your comments and references. One of the reasons I enjoy this hobby is the opportunity to learn from the experience of other knot enthusiasts and to better understand why knots behave differently depending on rope construction, material, and loading conditions.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

[agent_smith]

Hello ‘APPOLARI’,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “the Tricorn loop performed very well…”? For example, in what aspect did Ashley #1029 ‘perform very well’?

And also, can you elaborate on what you mean by “slippage”?

ie… which part of the eye knot slipped?

I note that Ashely #1029 Decorative loop is based on an overhand knot - and therefore it is likely to jam under heavy loading.

How much load did you apply - and did you see any evidence of jamming up to the level of load you applied?

Have you considered Scotts locked Bowline as an alternative fixed eye knot? In my view, Scotts locked Bowline is an impressive creation. It is resistant to jamming - even under very heavy loading. It is also resistant to transverse loading of the ‘eye’ (what some refer to as ‘ring loading’).

[APPOLARI]

First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to reply and share your observations about the Tricorn Loop and Ashley #1029.

I am only a knot enthusiast, not a professional rigger or researcher. I enjoy teaching practical knots to people who live and work on farms and rural properties. So far I have shown this knot to only two people, but I hope that interesting and lesser-known knots will not be forgotten and can be passed on to future generations.

What attracted me to the Tricorn Loop was not only its function, but also its appearance. I think it is a very elegant and unusual knot, and that is one of the reasons I became interested in testing it.

Regarding my observations, I believe a better description would be “initial settling” rather than “slippage.” When tied in a stiff and relatively smooth 6 mm cord, the Tricorn Loop seemed to settle more than some other fixed loops I tested, such as the Bowline and the Zeppelin Loop. However, after being loaded, it stabilized and performed very well.

My test was not intended as a strength comparison. Here in rural areas we often use rope loops to close farm gates by passing the loop around a fence post. Because this application usually involves only light tension, I became interested in observing how the knot behaved before and after being loaded. With the stiff cord I used, it seemed that the knot required some load before fully settling into its final geometry.

There are certainly many other loops that can perform the same task, and I am not claiming that the Tricorn Loop is superior to them. My interest is simply to understand its practical behavior and, in a small way, help preserve a knot that I find historically interesting and visually appealing.

I live in Brazil, in the town of Mirassol d’Oeste, near the Bolivian border. In this region many people still use rope loops to close farm gates, making them easier to open while on horseback.

I spent part of my life in rural areas and I even owned a farm in the past. Ironically, when I lived on the farm I knew very little about knots and lashings. At that time it was difficult to learn these skills because there were few sources of information and almost no access to the knowledge that is so easily available today.

Now I live in town and have developed a strong interest in studying knots. I enjoy understanding their mechanics, engineering, and history. Whenever someone is interested, I am happy to share what I have learned and teach the knots that I know.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons I became interested in the Tricorn Loop. Besides being functional, I find it to be a beautiful and memorable knot. I would hate to see interesting knots disappear simply because people stop using and teaching them.

Once again, thank you for your comments and for mentioning Ashley #1029. I found the comparison very interesting.

[Dan_Lehman]

How much force was put on the slipping knot,
and what part(s) slipped?
IMO, looking at the structure of #1029, I’d expect
it to hold the Tail well in ring-loading --as that is
directly nipped. And the other side is in an OH
structure which looks to be secure. (IMO, for
strict eye-knot use, Ashley’s #1029 should see
its Tail being the Returning Eye Leg, and its REL
the Tail --a reversed finish.
But in playing with some soft nylon solid braid,
I see that ring-loading can shift the Tail to a
not-so-directly nipped position.
Can you get resistance with some different
dressing of the knot, in your firm cord?

Part of the appeal of this simple EK is that its
amenable --to some degree/some ropes& force–
to what I call “forcible loosening”. In this case,
pull the Tail vs. the RELeg to prise out some of
the S.Part.

–dl*
====*

[APPOLARI]

Thank you for your observations, Dan.

I would like to clarify something about my use of the word “slipped.”

English is not my native language, and what I observed would be better described as the knot settling into its final loaded position rather than actually slipping.

The cord was a stiff, round, and relatively slippery 6 mm accessory cord. When I first loaded the Tricorn Loop, it moved approximately 3 cm as the structure tightened and seated itself into its final configuration. After that initial movement, I applied my full body weight (approximately 108 kg), and I could not detect any further movement whatsoever, not even a millimeter.

In my opinion, the compact structure of the Tricorn Loop may explain this behavior. Compared with the Bowline and the Zeppelin Loop, the turns of the Tricorn seem more compact and closed. In a stiff cord, this may require an initial adjustment before the knot reaches its final secure configuration.

Another observation was that, after loading, the Tricorn became the most difficult of the three loops to untie.

I did not perform laboratory measurements, so I cannot provide an exact force value. These were practical field tests using my body weight and manual loading.

I should also mention that in softer and more flexible cordage I did not observe this initial movement at all. The knot appeared to seat immediately and remained stable.

For people unfamiliar with the knot, I found it surprisingly easy to teach and tie. It is not as intuitive as the Zeppelin Loop, but I found it at least as easy to explain as the Bowline, perhaps even easier.

On a personal note, the more I work with the Tricorn Loop, the more I appreciate it. I find it practical to tie, easy to teach, and visually very elegant. That is one of the reasons I became interested in testing it further.

As I continue participating in these discussions, I will also try to improve my Portuguese-to-English translations so that my observations are communicated more accurately and misunderstandings can be avoided.

Thank you again for your interest, your analysis, and for taking the time to discuss my observations.

[APPOLARI]

Dan,

After our discussion, I repeated the test several times to better understand what was happening.

I began to suspect that part of the movement I observed might have been caused by internal slack within the knot rather than by actual slipping.

I carefully dressed the Tricorn Loop and removed as much visible slack as possible before loading it. I also marked the tail with a pen so that any movement could be observed more easily.

In a light manual pull test (approximately 10 kg of force by hand), the amount of movement was greatly reduced compared to my earlier observations. This makes me think that at least part of the initial movement may have been the knot compacting and settling into its final geometry as the internal slack was removed.

Of course, I am still testing and do not consider this a final conclusion yet. I would like to repeat the experiment more times before reaching any firm conclusion.

I am also curious whether our tying or dressing methods might differ slightly. If you have the opportunity, I would be very interested to know whether you observe similar behavior in your own tests, especially with firm cordage.

Your observations have been very helpful and encouraged me to investigate the knot more carefully.

Thank you again for the discussion.

[Dan_Lehman]

Looking at your nice bottomost/3rd image,
try extending the knot by tucking the Tail
around-under-up-between S.Part & Returning
Eye Leg & Outgoing Eye Leg --which together
form a sort of triangle at about 2:00 position
to your thin highlighting yellow circle.

The hope here is that the tucked extra diameter
goes some way to boost strength/less rope wear,
and can be used to pull out some S.Part from a
loaded knot --maybe a hope too far, in some practical
cases, such as taking a common rockclimbing fall!?

–dl*
====*

[APPOLARI]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your suggestion and for taking the time to study the photos.

After performing additional tests, I believe the word “slipped” was not the best description of what I observed in the first test.

The initial movement occurred with a new, stiff and smooth 6 mm cord. After repeated loading, the cord became more supple and I could no longer observe any significant movement.

I also tested the Tricorn Loop in a 7 mm UIAA certified cordelette. Using reference marks on the knot, I could not detect any meaningful displacement. If there was any movement at all, it was about 1 mm or less and consistent with normal knot settling.

Based on these tests, I now think the initial movement was mainly related to the stiffness and bedding-in of that particular cord rather than to the Tricorn Loop itself.

Another interesting observation is that the Tricorn Loop seems to perform better in supple cords than in stiff cords. The 7 mm cordelette dressed very well and remained compact and stable under load.

My interest in this knot is mainly for rural applications in Brazil, such as permanent gate loops. In that use, the loop is tied once and remains in place for a long time, so its compactness and resistance to accidental untying are qualities that I appreciate.

Many farms in my region still use ropes to close gates, especially where it is convenient to open and close them while mounted on horseback. For this type of application, a compact and stable fixed loop can be very useful.

Thank you again for your analysis and suggestion.

Best regards,

José Luiz Appolari
Brazil