Hi,
I am making a short drama film for my university course and was wondering if anyone could help me out, I have researched briefly on knots, however it is a subject I know little about and wanted the advice of people who would know.
The particular part of this film would focus on one character belittling the other over why he escaped from the rope tied around his wrists (which were behind his back).
I would like to know which knots are easy to escape from in this context.
There is also a scene in which he ties the best knot for bounding his enemies wrists, I figured that a constrictor knot or a handcuff knot would be best for this scene.
Any help would be greatly appreciated…
A constrictor knot is not necessarily a good choice for binding limbs. If the crossings slip over a non-convex area, they may be loosened.
P.S. What are your criteria for the “best” limb binder? For example, is escape prevention the only consideration, or is occupant safety or the ability to apply to an unwilling person also important?
An inappropriately applied binding can cut off blood supply and in a very short time the persons hand can die. You should never mess around with rope bindings with the attitude that safety is not important.
Perhaps you should go out and buy a pair of handcuffs, you do not need to worry about safety with them, or if the period is present day then stay in character and use cable ties or Gaffa tape as used by the police or forces today.
As for escaping from a restraint where your hands are tied behind you, it is almost impossible irrespective of what knot the tier has used unless you are a skilled escapologist or the tier has no sense at all and creates a fat jumble instead of an actual knot.
PS. I have reported this thread for moderation because of the indifference to personal safety.
Perhaps you ought to give us some more detail of your film project. We do sometimes get requests from artistically interested people, but Derek is quite right: even in a film environment, you need to show the proper treatment of the subject (in this case the knot) or make it much more clear to us why the proper treatment is not an issue.
A character belittling another over why he escaped from a restrictive binding seems very odd. Who wouldn’t try to escape? The only scenario that seems likely is that of a considerable stereotype such as sadistic pleasure. Is the antagonist the sort of personality that would know that much about knots? Does the film provide a background whereby he would explain his knowledge (ie, a brief scene concerning childhood, or looking at a book of knots)? Is the film tied to realism, or is it surreal - in which case what you need not be concerned with the actual knot beyond the safety of the actors (in the same way that Hollywood is not concerned with the minor detail that explosions in space are spherical, not flat planes)? Or are you aiming for a balance of both, in which case you need to decide how to balance them.
The plot of the film notwithstanding, since you propose to actually show the knot being tied, then the physical safety of the actor who will be bound is paramount. You won’t get far in the film industry without health and safety, whether that is your career or not.
Which university do you attend? Perhaps you may be able to attend a Branch meeting.
I didn’t say I would be using the knot in the film, only that the information would be used to belittle a character, please calm down derek, there is no need to report me for you over-reacting, for everyone else, thank you for the constructive comments. When I said safety is not important, it was in context to the character within the narrative, not the actor on the set, please do not condescend to me on the issue of safety, I am aware. The film is set in one location, and the events to seem unpredictable and not premeditated, hence the use of rope, not handcuffs. (also, when do police forces use gaffa tape? Please explain).
One character would be very skilled at knot tying and so would be able to work out the knot, figuring out how to undo it. This was the plan anyway.
The selected knot would not (no pun intended) be shown visually, any visual shots would show only rope near hands, no knots, the information is purely for dialogue use. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
The character will have been left alone for many hours with his wrists tied behind his back.
The character does not flee the scene as the reason he was tied up was not to be murdered, only subdued
The plot of the film dictates that they must wait in this one place, in order to contact another person, so nobody would flee
The plot contains elements of violence, but is peppered with black comedy (comedy about death, violence etc.)
The character does take sadistic pleasures, however this is revealed much further on
The character tying the ‘easy’ knot would be inexperienced, only using rope out of desperation
The character tying the ‘hard’ knot would know a lot about knots, maybe from some sort of survival training or personal interest etc.
Neither of the characters background knowledge needed explaining though it may be useful to have a flashback of him at said training, knowledge as to where he may have learned such a skill (escapology, military training, scouts, books for example) would also be appreciated.
Liminal, it was not my intention to be condescending, neither in word nor intimation, if you feel that I failed to understand your awareness of safety, then the fault was yours for failing to make your awareness clear to me on an issue which by now you will appreciate is important to all responsible knot tyers.
(also, when do police forces use gaffa tape? Please explain).
Now knot tying and language are similar in the respect that if you make a very small change it can make a huge difference to the result. If you read my post again carefully you will see that I did not write ‘police forces’ - I had included the word OR, vis - ‘police or forces’ and from this you should have understood that perhaps ‘forces’ use Gaffa.
At this point I have to make it clear however that I have no first hand knowledge of these issues. With the exception of once seeing a person in handcuffs, my whole perception comes from books, films (including TV) and the internet. Having said that, I have seen documentary footage of armed forces using cable ties, wire or Gaffa tape to secure the wrists of captives and film portrayals where criminal forces seem to prefer the ubiquitous roll of Gaffa tape, – this is the basis of my comment.
As for your plot, I do not understand your explanation and so cannot comment further other than reiterating that even with the encyclopedic knowledge of knots possessed by the likes of Dan Lehman or Roo, they could not escape from even simple knots binding their hands behind their backs. When you see escapologists doing this it is based on illusion or trickery or abject idiocy on behalf of the tyer, however, it is also reasonable to note that even a skilled knotter would have difficulty securely restraining an escapologist if the escapologist were allowed control over certain elements of the process (their choice of cloths, the rope, location and what they were bound to etc.)
even with the encyclopedic knowledge of knots possessed by the likes of Dan Lehman ...
could not escape from even simple knots binding their hands behind their backs.
Sorry to be late to this dramatic thread, but I was tied up, and it took a while to wiggle free
–even w/my ears burning and all!
Maybe one should be seeking advice from the S&M crowd!? :-[
To my mind, it’s not likely to be so much a knot per se, but a lashing that binds the wrists
& arms, whose ends might be tied off various ways.
This forum’s current chatter could provide some ideas for the scene: so many here cite the Constrictor
knot as one of their Top Ten, one could fancy their too-clever-by-half employment of it upon some
victim, all the while smugly asserting their expertise; and the victim, less vocal but more savvy,
taking advantage of the insight offered by Roo of that knot’s weakness in its needing to be pressed
against a convex surface–conceivably one could wiggle the wrists to exploit this!
Another likely finish to a lashing would be the simple and commonly known Reef / Square knot.
If an end (just one is enough) of the binding rope were long enough, the victim could endeavor
to step upon it and pull his wrists away in the opposite direction to the end’s finish, which is the
prescribed method for capsizing the knot (something yachters should know)–and then gradually
wiggle through the now Larkshead-around-other-end knot adequate material to loosen the binds.
At least if the lashing is of but a couple wraps; more wraps will diminish the gain of any feed through
the capsized knot, and a quick test showed that to be too much a challenge.
Hmmm, material slickness helps. And were the binding material borrowed from a floor lamp,
say, then one would necessarily have all the components for success: not-so-knot-friendly, slick,
material, limited length for wrapping, but still an assured long end for capsizing the knot! BINGO!
I’ve just played around with both scenarios above, in 8mm old climbing kernmantle cord, not
terribly tightly set (for the Reef, I gave up setting in situ: estimated lashings size and then tightened
the knot, and then wriggled INTO it); the cases seem plausible. How many folks are trained at
binding others? --or even at knotting?! (I don’t have any knot-forensics book: SquareRigger, Gordon?)
Good luck,
may The Force be with you (but not the police),
You have an interesting scenario here - I think that if anyone were to deride another for incorrect knotting it would be in the LOCATION of the tying not the knot itself. DL is correct that a lashing would be a great choice - what is also certain is that tying the wrists allows someone who is double-jointed or very flexible to escape simply by moving their wrists to the front of their body (under their butt or over their head if the wrists can be rotated so that they can do it) far better it would be to tie the ELBOWS together as close as comfort allows (circulation may well be restricted in larger people) behind the back, with a stout pole slipped and lashed to the upper arms, between the victim’s back and the elbows to prevent rotation. The wrists could then be lashed together to quite immobilise the victim. The art of hojo-jitsu as practiced in the Far East offers some complete insights to human immobilization techniques. As to training - there are very few today who appear to be or are trained in the use of cord, although farm-hands immobilize animals’ legs with hobbling techniques, farriers use hobbles, firefighters use lashings and webbing for restraint to baskets, carriers and stretchers, to name a few who do, mostly with techniques passed on from one generation or station to another. I’ll dig out my books on forensic knotting to see who might be identified specifically other than as noted above, on restraint of persons, other, of course, than BDSM practitioners who have a series of books about knotting techniques that allow for lashing as being a better binding, allied also to hitches around another binding piece of line so that the victim in struggling makes the lashing tighter. Not much help I think!
How about letting the ‘victim’ palm a bite for slack, clasp it firmly between hand heels, then let it loose whenst left alone, and work that slack around in the lashings that bind to freedom.
Gudday Liminal
Suggest you consider the type of rope used. Many knots that are secure in natural fibre like manila, sisal, cotton are not too god when you use some of the stiff and slippery plastics. There have been reports of Bowlines coming adrift when tied in polyethylene.
Cheers
frank
I second the opinions of Mr. Lehman and Mr. Squarerigger in that for the “look” on screen a lashing (addressing the the elbows and the wrists and perhaps even the waist) looks the most formidable and if mentioned that a constrictor or strangle knot encircled the parallel runs of the lashing would add a"dangerous" and knowledgeable sounding element to the person quoting this.
Now this would to be the hard to escape set up.
As for easy, any sloppy use of knotting would be just fine. Just use some granny knot or reef knot tied loosely.
Magicians are said to “expand” the place where the knot is tied to leave some looseness that they can then exploit in the escape attempt.
But I have no such “look” in mind (and I admit to paying more attention to “drama”
than “film” and was thinking of a stage performance): esp. as my last-given example,
of using the lamp cord, implies (and needs , for effect), there is relatively little
material at hand for the binding–and a necessarily long “end” (i.e., the floor lamp),
with which the bound person can use to capsize the squaREef knot.
I only agreed with the part about a lashing.
Though Liminal did mention the use of rope.
Although there might be many types of bindings suitable to the task, I thought that a lashing (survivalist or special operative training?) would be very visually or verbally interesting to His scene.
So since we haven’t read back from Liminal in a while, perhaps he got his answer(s).
This forum's current chatter could provide some ideas for the scene: so many here cite the Constrictor
knot as one of their Top Ten, one could fancy their too-clever-by-half employment of it upon some
victim, all the while smugly asserting their expertise; and the victim, less vocal but more savvy,
taking advantage of the insight offered by Roo of that knot's weakness in its needing to be pressed
against a convex surface--conceivably one could wiggle the wrists to exploit this!
Liminal, everybody,
Please do not under any circumstances apply a constrictor to the human body. Its self gripping and concealing structure make it virtually impossible to untie once it has tightened, especially should it have the opportunity to partly embed itself into a fleshy area, which makes it hard, even dangerous to cut it off.
The constrictor works when it has a convex surface behind the compression area and not at all if the knot is suspended over a concave area, but in general, wrists, hands, fingers, arms, neck etc are all essentially convex and will hold the constrictor dangerously well.
But much worse, is the fact that the constrictor likes to work on a springy surface, where the surface presses back and clamps the gripping structure in place. Worse still, is the fact that just about any tension leads to the knot tightening still further against the spring of the flesh and the knot bites in like a tourniquet rapidly eliminating blood flow. In my opinion the constrictor and its sister the strangle should never be use for direct restraint.
The purpose of restraint is after all exactly that - to simply restrain, prevent escape - there is no intention to harm, only restrain, so in that situation knots must be chosen which cannot work up and clamp into the flesh if the victim struggles. Frankly, the simple handcuff knot could hardly do the job better than if it had been designed to do the job. But for extended unattended security, those two half hitches to tie off the ends are a bit of a weak spot.
Holy Hyperbole, BatMan!! :o
Is it precisely this sort of balderdash I had pointed to in the quoted passage,
and speak of the devil and he shall appear!? :
Where to begin: “under any circumstance”!? Well, under the cicrumstance of learning
before typing, I just tied said dangerous and intractably secure binder knot around my very
own personal pair of wrists and–much to the consternation fo some, no doubt–I’m yet able
to play the keyboard (just imagine the contortions!); or perhaps I was able to work free (yes)?
Not to be too light in the tensioning, I tied (w/hands bound–bonus points to the knotting merit badge)
Ashley’s Stopper in the shorter end, slotted it in a handy by-the-pulley thin-slotted hook,
and stepped down into an eye on the opposite end, and t i g h t e n e d (with visions
of the local headlines: Knot So-Called “Expert” Dies on Self-Binding !). My material
was old 8mm nylon kernmantle, rather frictive (from age, not wear), moderately firm.
No, I didn’t put my full (or even half) weight upon the end–but maybe, hmmm, 30# force?
Keep in mind the friction of wraps going around flesh (or garments) and how that defeats
the real tightening of a binding, too.
Ashley’s myth about the Constictor’s undefeatable security has lived too long, parroted
rather than probed. YMMV w/materials & circumstance. I’ve found some Constrictor
whippings loosened (which I know I set fairly if not maximally tightly).
embed itself into a fleshy area, which makes it hard, even dangerous to cut it off.
This suggests a thin cord, no? --no my 8mm. --or rather fleshy vs. scrawny hands
(aha: another charge against overeating–risk of Constrictor-embedding!) In any case,
though, cutting is rather straightforwardly UNdangerous, chopping through the one spot
of doubled (on top of) material into not flesh but the overhand crossing beneath.
BUT …
The constrictor works when it has a convex surface behind the compression area and
… that is not entirely likely with hands tying, where the hands might be palm-2-palm and
the knot naturally tied with the twisted/knotted portion spanning the hands. (Recall i.p.
the premise of the OP re knotting skill, as my quoted passage remarks.) Even in other
orientations, I suspect that the victim unless very tightly bound with thin cord will be able
to make some shifting of wrists to help release nipping pressure at one side of the nip.
[Thinking of Chisholm’s “nub”, this is an interesting case re “knot”/“nub”, as so much of
the binding is simply the span of the wraps beside each other.]
And with thin cord not expertly positioned for the crossing/knotted part to seat well into
favorably shaped surface area (again, recall the OP), there is relatively MORE room
between hands for the loosening. (But this vulnerability would likely loom large and
immediate–i.e., frustrating the tying–, with cord of say 4mm or smaller, right?)
not at all if the knot ['s crossing point] is suspended over a concave area, … are all essentially convex
Hmmm, I disagree: my wrists are more eliptical w/significantly flattish broad sides (top/bottom);
and the give of flesh works against sure holding, too, when wiggling.
In my opinion the constrictor and its sister the strangle should never be use for direct restraint.
We might agree here, for exactly opposite reasons re their efficacy!
Police today reported finding the decomposed remains of the world renown KnotMeister after breaking into his home following complaints from neighbours of “A really ‘niffy’ smell”.
At first Police suspected foul play as they found the emaciated Knotmeisters corpse bound and trussed. The Police Chief told reporters that the victim was bound in every conceivable place, adding - “it was not a pretty sight”, and that his first assumption was that the Knotmeister has been the victim of a cult gang attack in some sort of ritualistic bondage sacrifice.
However later investigations of the Knotmeisters computer revealed that he was a member of a secretive guild calling themselves the IGKT and that his computer held evidence of regular communications claiming various acts of self bondage. Some members of the guild had apparently warned him ‘not to do it’, but it seemed the urge to indulge in self bondage had been too much for the Knotmeister to resist.
Some members of the guild commented that he had never been quite the same after an explicit photo of a large lady enjoying self bondage had been posted, stimulating some members into commenting and seemingly stimulating the Knotmeister a little too excessively into extensive personal experimentation. After this incident, he apparently made a number of posts wherein he claimed to have bound himself with numerous knots and cord, his favourites seeming to be lamp cord and a lovely silky 8mm braid.
Following this revelation, Police called in a Forensic Knot Expert, who confirmed that some of the bindings had been in place long before the victim had died and that those parts of his body had been decomposing for some time before the fatal bindings were applied. The Forensic expert confirmed that the complexity and precision with which the knots had been tied, was a trademark of a great Knotmeister, of which only a few exist in the world today, he commented - “No ‘man in the street’ would know these knots nor how to tie them with such attention to precision”. He added that perhaps the Knotmeister had become so attached to his little creations that he could not bring himself to destroy them, although another line of thought was that perhaps he just couldn’t get them off!!
The police were inundated with requests from various BDSM groups and hundreds of older men, for details of the knots the great Knotmeister had used (especially one mistakenly being called ‘The Python’), and photographs of the gory remains were said to be flooding YouTube. The Grand Baron and Chief Elves of the IGKT were quick to distance themselves and the Guild from anything remotely ‘smutty or smelly’ and declined to be interviewed on the knots to use (however, it is understood that one member of the guild is providing high quality DVDs with full details of how to tie numerous bindings, even decorative ones).
Ordinary members of the guild said that they would miss the Knotmeisters rapier like posts and their WebMistress, (later reported to be a 6’ 8" bricky called Jonno), said he would especially miss the wonderful, pedantic detailed posts the Knotmeister was renown for.
Meanwhile, Government ministers expressed grave concern that string and other dangerous weapons were apparently freely available to every member of the public and were said to be in discussion to enact legislation banning the use of string and the teaching of knots to anyone unless they were CANTAB. The government were said to be unwilling to put in place a total ban on the use of knots ‘as some responsible parts of society rely on knots extensively for personal enjoyment’, but they felt that this was just beyond the ‘man in the street’ to appreciate and society would be a safer place if it were to be made a criminal offence to be found in possession of string without the appropriate upbringing, and the song “Grandads got a python, No, No, it’s a Constrictor” is tipped to top the Christmas singles charts.
With all respect to your dexterity, I must agree that not ALL applications of the Constrictor will be problematical and yes cord thickness is a variant involved in this limitation.
In general the issues affecting the working of the Constrictor are:-
Convex surface
Springy surface
Thickness of cord to bound curvature (thinner binds more effectively)
Self frictional coefficient (higher friction more effective)
Structural integrity (hairy laid string more effective than solid braid).
So yes, if you pick the worst case mix from this set – two bony wrists (with concave gaps), bound with thick (8mm) kernmantle, then you will (as you have proved) be able to get the self grip to fail.
BUT
Most people will have access to hairy laid string or binder twine and if I were to bind (even) your wrists individually with constrictor knots in these materials, even with your knowledge of the knot structure, it is likely that you would not release the bindings and there would be a high risk that they would tighten in your exertions leading to ‘dead hands’. With no knowledge of how the knot will respond to frantic pulling and tugging, the ‘man in the street’ would soon be in a mess.
Warnings are much like Laws - there will be exceptions where they do not hold up to scrutiny, but if the warning is 3 pages long, then the hands might have dropped off, long before the caveats have been read.
I will for the sake of clarity make the point, that if we intend to restrain someone, then we have a duty of care to ensure that we will not harm them in the process and some knots like the autogripping constrictor have a significantly higher chance of doing harm than knots chosen to restrain safely.
But perhaps most relevant is that there really is only one Knotmeister.
The man who bound himself with the Constrictor and lived to tell the tale…
Safety First:-
Before tying the challenge, tape a 12" length of cord from your knuckles up the forearm on each arm. These will be used to safely pull the constrictor cords away from the wrist so it may be cut to release it.
Using a length of polly bailer twine, form a Constrictor and pass it over one hand. Set the knot on the wrist joint with the knot on the outside of the wrist (i.e not palm side).
Remove slack from the constrictor by pulling it up, but do not bind the line into the skin.
Safety :- take the ends of the safety release cord and tie them together to form a loop which can pull the constrictor up and away from the back of the wrist to allow the insertion of a blade or scissors.
Make a second Constrictor and place it around the second wrist joint (wrists behind the back) with the connecting cord passing diagonally between the wrists and the Constrictor on the outside of the wrist as in the first wrist. Tighten the Constrictor and make the safety cord into a loop.
Bring the ends together diagonally between the wrists and finish them with a rethreaded strangle encompassing the first diagonal cord. The gap between the wrists does not have to be tight as a little slack will encourage the person foolish enough to take up the challenge to struggle a little. Fully tighten the rethreaded strangle closure.
The ‘challenger’ must never be left unattended with the hands bound in this manner and if the hands become swollen or cold or the ‘challenger’ experiences tingling or numbness, the safety cords must be tensioned to pull the bindings away from the wrists and the bindings cut off immediately.
The challenger is then allowed to attempt to escape from the bindings without using knives or any other sharp implement to cut the bindings, but if they are feeling agile enough, they may step through their arms to bring the wrists to the front to bring their teeth to bear on the bindings. Naturally, the safety release loops are only there for safety, and the challenger may not use them to aid their escape.
Anyone feeling foolish enough to take up the challenge?
Webmistress.
If you feel this challenge is inappropriate for an open board, please feel free to take it down, I will not object in any way. I must confess to feeling quite uncomfortable making posts like this on a board which does not carry the PG warning.
I hate to egg you on Derek, but I need the next installment of the “As the Knot Ties” saga.
You have talent my friend.
My challenge is to tie yourself or have someone else tie a 16 part by 3 Bight thk around the arms, behind the back, from the wrists to elbows (or beyond), snug up so the load is well spread and then escape.
I believe that would certainly resist the attempt, and if knot we can come up with a more complicated (decorative) method.
And at least it will look nice to boot.
