Please, excuse me. My English is very bad.
If someone from this forum speaks French, his help will be welcome.
My name is Jacques Royer. I am French, 43 years old, scouts when I was teenager, French Navy for 3 months, I worked for clothing factories for 10 years and now for Inland French Waterways. I play nylon guitar (knots again) I am not really a knot tyer, just a knot user but knots interest me.
I tied a knot to create a loop in the middle of a rope. This knot is not the alpine butterfly. It is quick and easy to tie and untie and you can give easily the size you want to the loop. I tie a “n½ud d’oiseau” then a "demi clé à capeler " around the loop with the “sliding” part of the rope.
I asked for its name on a French knot forum: this knot looks like a “noeud d’oiseau renforcé” or a “noeud tendeur simple” but in the in the middle of a rope and I do not use the same way to make it.
One told me: you are the creator of this knot. I would like to know your opinions about this, before I open a bottle of champagne!
My explanations are not very clear. Is it allowed to write direct links? Is it possible to annex a picture?
The loop has significant drawbacks. It’s not to hard to make it jam badly. It doesn’t like to keep its shape, and, if drawn up without care, can actually turn into a loop that is fixed
when pulled one way but slides when pulled the opposite way.
It’s probably due to these considerations that it doesn’t really get used.
No champagne for me.
It is exactly the same knot, only the method of tying changes. (I prefer my method but it’s mine! )
Now I have to find its French name.
Thanks for such a quick and efficient answer.
Good Lord! That was quick - asked, answered, and thanked in a jiffy. “Knot names” is a hot forum topic these days and there was no time to play the ever popular song - “Butterfly or Alpine Butterfly Loop”! Shucks! ;D
With a sigh of disappointment ;D, I say: Cheers,
Brian.
Salut et bienvenue ptiroy.
J’ai preferré t’adresser un mail directement à propos du site de noeuds français que tu cites.
Tu verras il y a ici d’impressionnates encyclopédie sur deux pattes. Moi ils/elles m’impressionnent. Et ils/elles donnent des references que tu peux verifier.
Cordialement
Hello and welcome ptiroy
I preferred to send you an email about the french knot web site you put as link.
You will see, on this forum, are living, walking, impressive, encyclopaedias. They impress me at least. And they give reference you can cross-verify.
Kind regards.
Sorry, that’s all the French I know, and I stole that from Nautile :-[. What little I learned in 7th grade has long since left me. Your English is vastly better than my French!!
As to your knots, I’m fairly adept at finding stuff, so when I go looking for your “starter”, the “n½ud d’oiseau”, I get a simple Overhand Loop Knot, (ABOK #1009), not the Slip Knot (“Noeud De Glissade”; ABOK #43 or 44) you show.
As to the “demi clé à capeler”, that’s just a “Half Hitch” thrown over the Slip Knot’s loop.
When I tie the knot you illustrate, I get a decent, fairly pretty loop that’s very easy to tie & untie, but I worry that the Overhand Loop you finish with will run itself over the Slipknot’s loop & let the whole thing collapse, unless you keep something in the Slipknot’s loop at all times. Ashley’s Adjustable Loop – sorry “ABOK #1021” looks an awful lot like yours, except your illustrated method looks easier to tie on the bight.
So I’m guessing:
“Noeud de glissade et un demi clé à capeler”
or:
“Noeud de glissade et demi d’accroc”
or perhaps:
“Noeud réglable de boucle” ???
(And if you want a nice finger exercise, tie ABOK #1038, a “True Lover’s Knot” (“Le Noeud Du Véritable Amoureux”??), which looks exactly like this one when I tie it. Again, your method “works” better in my hands.)
Just my “two cents worth”, which shows how worthless two cents can be.
Please do keep in touch!
Jimbo
(PS: After playing with this knot a little, I am happy to know it! When I go camping, I “develop” shelter by hanging cordage as a framework for tarp(s). The Alpine Butterfly has long been my mid-span loop of choice; but this one is easier to tie, untie, & adjust, so I’ll be happy to use it on the next camping trip!
Après avoir joué avec ce noeud, je suis heureux de le savoir ! Quand je vais camper, I “développent” l’abri en accrochant le cordage comme cadre pour le tarp(s). Le papillon alpestre a longtemps été mon boucle d’mi-envergure de choix ; mais il est plus facile attacher, délier, et ajuster celui-ci, ainsi je serai heureux de l’employer en prochain voyage campant !)
If you grab up your ABOK and make a mirror image of ABOK # 1053 you will find your knot. I have always felt that left and right handed versions of the same knot need two names… or at least a recognition of “handedness”. As to method… I think ABOK is easier… just one movement. Albiet in mirror.
You will find Natulie a french speaking knotting expert. He and I have had many “off forum” discussions. The best part is that charles and I can work off forum to help you with the linguist twist. See you off forum.
Right you are Roo. My error. That sent me back to ABOK. How about ABOK #1038? Will that satisfy? This was all fresh in mind because the current issue of Knot News has a piece by Percy Blandford which showes the knot in question but no ABOK reference. I had hurriedly looked through and made the eronious assumption. Maybe I got it right this time?
How about ABOK #1021? Jacques' method (a Slip Knot with a snubbing loop from the slipping side) seems to come out more like that one, to me...
Of course, if you start to tie #1038, but, like a certain wretched Kinker of Lower-Eastern Cordage, don’t follow the written directions… :-[ … well, you can lead the OH Knot over the Slip Knot there, as you set everything up & end up the same… Or at least I did. A bunch of times. (Smacks self on head)
Hi, well done Jimbo. I am undone. Darn, I knew if you got an ABOK in your hands there would be no stopping you! My only plea is “I was tired”. :-[ As an aside.. is it not fun how these related but different knots exist? 1038 and 1021 and the alpine butterfly et al? What a difference a twist makes!
Thank you Pabpres and Jimbo for providing me with a natural testing ground : please consult album for a graphical summary of your posts using the H& L drawing sequence tool :
and post in “tentative defining knot” titled "ptitroy-1021-1038
Put it there as I think best to put all this sort of information in the same topic. Already 3 topics ate intertwining
the above one plus “cans of worms” plus "abok compacted & extended
Wow, Jimbo, thanks for pointing out the relationship between ABOK 1038 (“Englishman’s Loop”) and ABOK 1021 (“Adjustable Loop”).
PABPRES said, “What a difference a twist makes”! I looked at one method of tying the “Adjustable Loop”. That method was the way the “caving Butterfly” started, in the site Roo posted: http://www.cs-caving-associatin.com/Reports/Knots%20A5.pdf . I compared it to ABOK #1040. If you start tying from the left, they only differ in the direction of the second loop- a different twist!
ABOK #1040 yields the “Improved Englishman’s Loop”, ABOK #1039, with nicely aligned “Overhand Knots”. The “caving Butterfly start” yields the “Englishman’s Loop”, ABOK #1038, with not so nicely aligned Overhand Knots, and the “Adjustable Loop”, ABOK #1021.
The “Improved Englishman’s Loop”, ABOK #1039, can transform into an adjustable loop; however, I have not see that particular form in print.
Of course, one can start these knots from the “Slip Knot”, ABOK #44, and the difference in the various knots is the different direction (twist) of the final half hitch.
“What a difference a twist makes”, said PABPRES. Oh, so true!
"What a difference a twist makes", said PABPRES. Oh, so true!
Thank you for more of your customary kind remarks!
As to (at least) one difference, here’s where I get to share one of my “tricks”…
As I mentioned, when I build shelter outdoors I hang smallish cordage from whatever is available. (Okay, it helps to live in/near the oldest mountains on Earth – lots of trees.)
This makes a custom-tailored framework for tarps, netting, whatever. If you must have a tent, think of my trick as your “giant rain fly”…
Anyway, as you can imagine, there are a lot of places where one “rib” needs to fasten to the middle of a span.
You can flippy-twist-tuck a loop as I have been doing, but most of the time I need to keep some tension on the SPart – both for alignment and for not dropping the whole mess to the ground or worse. Try that with #1038! I’m getting the knack for tying them “11/2-handed”!!
And sometimes I need to graft a “rib” onto an existing structure, if a new friend shows up & wants to share. I can make a #1038 or #1053 there, as I’ve done so many times (One downside to living in the oldest mountains on Earth: there are a LOT of people here!!! :().
But Jaques’ “Noeud réglable de boucle” (ABOK #1021 to my rheumy old eye) will let me hold whatever tension I want, precisely where I want it, and should behave itself well through the outing. And when I practice them indoors with cordage strung from the freezer door to the cook’s leg, this trick (Slip Knot with snubbing loop from the slipping side) “just comes out of my hands”, just the way I like 'em!! ;D ;D ;D
ABOK #1038 can “get you there”, and (if tied correctly, as PABPRES would do instinctively) makes a really nice loop knot (the sliding apart of the two component knots makes untying a treat) with a “bonus” of using those two sliding “True Lover’s” knots to snub a bight of (e.g.) a ferret leash, lantern lanyard, or trash bag. All without disturbing whatever is hanging in the “raison d’être” loop.
I plan to use the #1021 for the “back” dropper loops, and the #1038 for the “front” ones, where I might need a “3rd hand” to hold a flashlight… For that matter, the “raison d’être” loop of #1038 can slip to hold a flashlight or pole or nephew!!
Thanks and all praise to you All, for leading me here!! Now let’s go camping!
Jimbo: I’m going to try to give you some answers but my English is far in my memory too
Thanks a lot for your links This will be useful to create a lexicon translation especially to write messages on this forum.
First a question: What is ABOK#xxxx? Reference from Ashley book?
As I told, I am not a knot tyer, I do not know really the French words so it will be difficult for me to be clear in English.
Nautile: if I write something wrong please help me.
I bought a translation of knot book by Geoffrey Budworth while I wrote in the French forum . A lot of knot has different names according to the uses they have, the region, the books or websites or knot-boards in which you find them. Add errors and mistakes, it’s terrible. If you have this book perhaps the numbers and references of figures and knot are the same.
· “Starter” is slip knot=>in French: “noeud coulant simple” or “noeud d’oiseau” depending on which end is the running end. In this case, perhaps “noeud d’oiseau”? Fig 19 C or D (knot book by Geoffrey Budworth )
· Overhand Loop Knot,=> “noeud de plein poing”
· “demi clé à capeler”=> " Un tour mort et deux demi-clés " a “demi-clé”=> half hitch is done to go from 1to2 and from 2 to3 => a round turn and two half hitch? " à capeler " is a bit wrong I think: ( from old French cap: chief or head) means thrown over the head of something, a bollard…according to inland mariners talking in south of France (capeler: throw a loop over a bollard) in this case you can’t “capeler”
· “Noeud de glissade et un demi clé à capeler”=> N½ud coulant et une demi clé à capeler. Perfect! You can already tie it before you see any picture=>slipknot and half hitch? Over-loop half-hitched slipknot?
· In a french forum one told me it’s a “noeud tendeur” used to camping
In knot book by Geoffrey Budworth it’s “noeud d’oiseau renforcé” or “noeud à paquet” Fig 19 G used as stopping knot to pack with a string.
How could I imagine that this message show me how many knots do exist and how serious and complex is the science (art?) of knot tying.
I first tied it (after several unsuccessful and ridiculous tries) to obtain a non-slipping loop in the middle of a rope.
The slipknot is one of the knots I know. Child, I named it “magic knot” because you can make it disappear by pulling both ends. I added half hitch to avoid slipping of the loop.
Now, I use it very often as loop, stopping knot when a big one is necessary, even to carry out a kind of tackle.
Please, tell me more about ABOK#xxxx? I can’t understand half of what you write :-[
Sorry again about my English: I know there is a lot of mistakes but I don’t know where!!!
First a question: What is ABOK#xxxx? Reference from Ashley book?
Yes.
When words (or entire languages) get in the way, the Ashley Book Of Knots (ABOK) serves as a convenient “shorthand” way of referring to a certain knot. Clifford Ashley documented, categorized and numbered almost every way possible to put kinks in cord.
In “the old days”, before the WWWeb, knot tyers would write to each other on paper. Needless to say, artistry is rare, but Ashley’s book of pictures is at every library. The “shorthand” of referring to the numbers Ashley used kept busy knotters from having to describe each knot – sometimes in different languages.
Mr. Budworth’s books are very fine; but Ashley’s is the “Reference Standard”. I have two of Mr. Budworth’s books, and the only “complaint” (if you could call it that) I have is his use of the word “Complete”. They’re not, but who cares? They’re very fine.
The ABOK is written in English, although there may be French translations; but the numbers are the same in any language.
D’abord, je trouve que tu ne te debrouille pas si mal que ça en anglais ecrit.
First, I find that you do not do so badly writing in english
Heureuseument les gars/filles ici font des efforts pour comprendre ce que l’on ecrit, alors ne soit pas timide, ca vaut le coup.
Fortunately guys/girls here make an effort to understand what we write, so do not be shy, it is worth it.
Ensuite, Jimbo a raison, le LGLDNDA ( that is ABOK in french for you : Le Grand Livre Des Noeuds De Ashley ) est incontournable
Jimbo is right, ABOK is “inescapable”.
This book make for shorter and safer communication. Et rien ne l’a surpassé, et certainement pas le “copieurs”
Avec ce livre la communication est plus rapide et plus sure. No book has outdone it, and certainly not the many copy-cat books ( of which Mr Budworth is not)
La maniere francaise te la maniere anglaise de “classer” les noeuds sont tres differentes et notre “carte mentale” est tres differente.
The french and english way to “classify” knots are quite different from each other and ou “mind map” is very different.
Attention aux traducteurs en ligne, le resultat peut etre tres bizarre. Petit test de controle : traduite d’une langue vers une autre et demander au traducteur de traduire le resultat obtenu dans la langue d’origine. Amusement garanti sur un texte un peu long..
Mais c’est beauxcoup mieux que rien et permet de se comprendre à 75%.
Beware of on line translation, results can be quite queer. Little control test : translate from one language to another and with the resulting text ask for a translation back into the original language. Fun guaranteed on a text with a few sentences. But it is much better than nothing and make for a 75% understanding. But beware of the remaining 25%.
Si tu peux en supporter le cout : achete le LGLDNDA et la ABOK comme ça tu pourras ( avec certaines reserves là aussi) te faire ton education bilingue. Je te mets ici des liens. Et n’achete pas d’autres livres qui t’equilibrerout to depense.
If you can afford the cost, buy un LGLDNDA et/and one ABOK, you will be able ( with some reserves) make your bilingual education.Do not buy other book, that will make for the cost incured.
Go and see on www.bookfinder.com ( the very best there is if you are trying to find a book new or used) they have english and french sections
English :
et author = ashley ou laisser vide
title = ashley book of knots
The lowest price is ( without shipping cost) 25 euros- about USD30.50
French il faut cliquer sur l’option “french”
auteur = ashley
titre = le grand livres des noeuds
le prix le plus bas est 46 euros, à peu prés USD50
Tu peux essayer sur eBay mais il y a de fortes chances que ca revienne a beaucoup plus cher.
Ma proposition tient toujours ( et vaut aussi pour d’autres ) utilise mon e-mail et donne moi ton adresse postale et je ferais un CD avec mes documents en anglais et en francais. Les lois sur "la propriete intellectuelle m’interdisent de lamettre sur mon espace web.
Seul l’usage privé est tolere.
My offer still stand ( and is good for others too ) use my e-mail and give me your postal address? I will burn a CD of my documentation in english and in french. Copyright and intellectual property laws forbid that I put it in my web space for downloading.Only private use allowed.
Voilà, c’est tout.
Here you are, finished
PS : Jimbo that was fun the fir / cat answer, burst out laughing with the last remark put there to reassure me about your deep respect for firs!
Thanks for further tips on BBcode coloring! Pot of gold at the end of the rainbow ?
)
