whipping splices

Okay, i’ll admit it. i never have tried splicing anything more then threestrand… but i would very much like to learn how to splice 12 strand, and all the fancy sythetics. in my reasearch of these more advance splices i have come across many that are whipped at the end.

Is this whipping integral to the strenght of the splice?

And if i’m splicing something to that is heavy and am requireing thtat the splice not fail under any cercumstance should i avoid the whipped splices and go for the more painstaking but unwhipped splices?

Hi Kingfisher and welcome to the forum! Do the splices other than 3-strand need to be whipped? Not for most of them, but it depends - Applying a whipping to the individual tails can certainly help to stop pull-out of the tails, but how will you group them? Do you intend the tails to be whipped to the strand? In the case of single braid, whipping (or more properly serving, stitching or seizing) the tails to the strand/splice adds little except to define where the strand will break. In the case of double braid with no stitching, the splice can definitely come undone with working, but again does not need whipping - stitching only. For braid on 3-strand, stitching may not catch all 3 strands equally, whereas whipping/seizing will achieve a nice decorative finish with little loss of strength. For core to core splices, Brummel splices and braid on parallel splices whipping is not needed, but stitching is definitely an advantage. For 8-strand or 12-strand, whipping or serving the tails can help to stop them from fraying out but is not needed for strength.
As to whether or not the splice will fail under any circumstance, that is technically impossible to predict, not knowing the meaning of “any” in that phrase. Strain on a spliced loop (if that is what you are addressing) can be alleviated or eased by 1. adding a thimble, 2. by keeping the line in perfect condition (that is, never using it), 3. by serving the loop over first and then adding a thimble, then add a seizing and/or whipping at the throat, 4. using oversized line for the anticipated load (is this shock loaded, loaded wet/dry or what?), or 5. by using some other method (like welding) and material to ensure the strength of the union.
The short answer to your question might well be - how is this to be used and why should it never fail? Is the use of line the right application?
I would like to know more in order to be able to help you and also I would like to hear others’ opinions. Don’t forget though, that with two riggers in the same room you’ll get three opinions, all different! Lots of luck to you,
Lindsey

I like to ‘dog’ the ends of splices in stranded and 8/12 plait MOORING (DOCK) LINES. The reason being that they are subjected to much use/abuse, especially in bad weather, where the splice can at best ‘slip’ and at worst be pulled out by continued jerking.
‘Doggong’ (just in case we have a transatlantic language problem) is the process of taking half the end of one strand and whipping it to half the adjacent strand end over the top of the standing part strand between them, using a common or palm and needle (in man-made fibre) whipping.

Gordon

I agree that we should know more particulars about which splices in what materials
are in question. There might well be some particular issues with the splice; some
materials are quite slippery, and some behavior might not be obvious at a glance.

Frankly, I’m not recalling much of any splices asking for whipping of ends,
but can think of some that call for whipping at the throat–and remarked at
Jimbo’s assertion that such was superfluous for a Brummel in Spectra!

“Strength” might be shown in terms of cyclic loading and incremental slippage
or wear; few users have needs of one great pull and depend on getting some
maximum of possible strengths for that.

–dl*

Hi,
Please error on the side of caution if you must error at all. Whip, seize, secrue or tape and not have it ever go asunder.
Many of us mess about with the fine points of knotting, because it gives us pleasure. But when it really matters.. I stitch, seize, tape, glue, fasten and then use nylon tyeraps. hehehehe :smiley:
You can research some traditon and visit some fine sites but if it is any real good person’s life on the line… vist all and make your own choices.
That said.. I do not know why three strand made of anything would ever need outside support. I am “up on” (that is to say) using three strand rope (line) in synthetic and natural with never a qualm many times a month. I tuck 3 strand at once full, once at half and once at one quarter in natural fiber line and tuck twice full, twice one half and twice one quarter for slippery line (synthetic). I am using the line at … perhaps 10% of manuf load.
So the bottom line: All good splices must stand alone.. This is because the whipping or seizing will be the first to go to the degradition of chafe and wear. So if the support structure should fail we will die. It matters not what the line is. We add seizing or stitching or whipping for the look of it or to keep it functional longer… the the strenght is in the original structure. I guess my point is simple: Don’t trust Osha but don’t stick your neck out. Yeehaww.

Holy mackerel, there, Kingfish!” ;D

You hit one of my “sore spots”. To me, the ideal is the “classic” double-braid eye splice. Done right, it looks like an eye just magically “grew” on the end of a rope.

But Double Braid isn’t the answer to every cordage problem, so we have to learn the new techniques or step off the merry-go-round.

To me, whipping is just to keep stranded rope from unlaying, which means it only goes on the unadorned ends. (At the risk of ticking off the salty crowd, I suspect “worming”, “parceling”, and “serving” rope is just to give hormone-laced sailor-boyz something to do while on a 5-day reach, but I’m not “salty”, so I don’t know!) (With that said, I use the technique of “serving” to cover steering wheels, grab rails, flashlights, etc. – because I like it better than hitchery! How’s that for incongruous?)

I’ve put in more 3- and 4-strand splices than I can recall, and the “fuzz” just annoys me no end (pardon the pun); BUT, I’d rather live with the fuzz than that clabbered-on whipping some people use!! Not that the “whippers” are wrong!!! But the look offends my eye, and I suspect it weakens the rope some as well. Marline or sail thread, so what, who cares. At a minimum, it’s a place I can’t readily inspect, so I never know for sure if there’s a catastrophic failure hiding under there or not.

However, as I write this, I’m looking at one of my latest tools, a couple furlongs of 5/8" huge, solid-braid (aka “anchor plait”, aka “shock cord”) Nylon, with round-eye hooks in each end. To attach the hooks, I used eyes (instead of knots), which must be stitched & whipped in this material. So I’m not “evangelizing” here!

So, to answer your question: Is whipping integral? Yes and no. ;D

I have purposefully avoided “laid-core” rope, as the splices are ugly, whether the core is twisted or straight. My first laid-core eye (in 10mm straight core Kevlar) has held up surprisingly well, but it is so ugly, with its whipping of several diameters to secure the cover, plus the heat-shrink to cover the ugly whipping, it’s “not to be countenanced”. I throw it at the nastiest jobs, hoping for an early death, but Kevlar is made of sterner stuff…

Meanwhile, I have since learned how to successfully bury the cover, so I’m happy to again resign my Marline to “tatting”, “flashlight service”, and the inevitable Constrictors used in everything knotty.

Most materials I’ve seen so far will allow a significant enough cover bury (IFF you can get it buried!) without killing the strength. The extra constriction in the buried area apparently doesn’t bother Kevlar too much, and the Spectra/Dyneema, etc., with the “sock” has “plenty” of room for the cover bury, so IMNERHO, there’s no need for whipping those either. (“Plenty”? That’s a euphemism for “you can jerk the cover bury home with something less than a bulldozer”!)

To me, the first thing to do is get the manufacturer’s instructions for whatever splice you want. Some of the instructions are easy to find, some are not. Sometimes finding a similar construction (materials and technique) of another brand should serve you fairly well.

A lot of manufacturers want pretty splices too, so after you master their exact, precise method, pay attention to the “insides” of the splice & see if you can visualize what’s happening under the cover. Be aware that sometimes the constriction of the cover holds the core in place, sometimes not. No, I can’t be more specific. Just visualize the splice going together & try to see where the cover ends up. Remember the old German saying: “Take life as it comes, but try to make it come the way you want to take it.”

As a case in point, splicing Sta-Set-X calls for taping the cover to the core, so burying the core tail pulls the cover tail in with. The tape is icky, but it makes a very lovely splice, and – generally speaking – if Brion Toss says it’ll work, I’d trust him (but verify!!) with material, if not my life.

Mostly, though, just
A- remember your “Chinese Handcuffs”,
B- make sure you understand what part(s) of the rope provide strength & hold that “sacred”,
C- stitch (or tuck a-la the Brummel) for low-load security, and
D- whipped or not, finish it off as fair as you can.

And, most importantly, hold on to your requirement that the splice not fail under any circumstances!!! That’s your biggest asset right now!! “Waste” as much of your favorite rope as you need to, by destructive testing, until you know your splices will hold – then show them off to your friends.

Whipping won’t kill you, and some actually like the look. But you only “need” whipping on ropes that can’t effectively be spliced.

Jimbo, what is it that you, with your “first laid-core eye (in 10mm straight
core Kevlar)” that “has held up surprisingly well” throw it at that rates as
“the nastiest jobs”?! --and such that you can safely(?!) be “hoping for an
early death” (of the rope!)? “Kevlar is made of sterner stuff”, though has a
bad reputation for NOT holding up well in much flexing use.
How is it that you come to be dealing in such interesting stuff? --of such
variety!?

As for the advice to ““Waste” as much of your favorite rope as you need to,
by destructive testing, until you know your splices will hold”, who’s funding
this potentially costy effort? --at maybe $3 per foot, and where does one get
a handy test device, and maybe a cyclic loader to give more meaningful testing
than a straight, slow pull?
(There is a report of testing done on a simple/quick’n’dirty rope-tuck splice
–i.e., whole rope (not merely a strand) tucked through the lay twice–, and
it showed the splice to be surprisingly strong, unless shock loaded, where it failed
at about half the slow-pull load (where actually it didn’t fail–the other end in
the device failed).)

Btw, what is it about your whipping that’s so “ugly”? --try some colored mason
line or clear nylon monofilament. (:

–dl*

i have yet to progress beyond your basic old threestrand tuck :smiley: and i’m a little shackey on most of the terminology here, however i’ll learn evetually.

as to the second part of the question, i haven’t got a specific project in mind, its just that at looking at a couple of splices (spectra i think, with some sorta cover (polypro?)) i notice a seize, whipped, something at the base of the eye of the splice and i was wondering if this was aestetics or integral to the strenght

Also, i suppose this would be a good time to ask it, if i wanted to learn more advaced splices, 12 strand and the like*, what is a good introductory splice, and where can i get directions?

*I’m a sailor, and i rarely use any thing but braids…

Hi Kingfisher,
I don’t know if you noticed but if you click on the bright color text in Jimbo’s post (and others) that will take you right to the link he is referring to. It took me a while to figure out that people were posting links within the message. I think you will find the link to Alan Grogono’s animated knots very useful (“instructions” in Jimbo’s text) as well as the link to “manufactures”. Mostly I find that anyone who makes line wants you to learn to use it… so give that a try. Hop back to Jimbo’s post and click on everything in color. I usually post the whole url as I am not cleaver enough to do it as Jimbo does.

Hi Dan,
When I was clearing my stump farm I was using an old USA 2 1/2 ton truck with a 12,000# Braden PTO winch. I was using 7/16" wire rope. Broke every now and again. A few months back I was putting down a 28" diameter cottonwood using 3/4" wire rope and snatch blocks to tell it where to fall as well as a 1/2" log chain to keep it from kicking sideways. Gravity is a powerful force and when it builds some momentum… Wow! Here, wire rope is free. Maybe Jimbo lives where fancy plastic is free! hehehehehe ;D I know this is off thread a bit but addresses “hard service” and how hardware has a way of failing even without a supertanker to tow around. :wink:

well, i finished my first splice. its an eys splice about 2.5 inches (idk what that is in centemeter sorry :cry: )in diameter in 12 strand something with a something cover. (polypro? that sound familiar, hmmmmm, i’ll get back on that)

hopefully picture to come

Not to stray too far off topic, but as usual, DanL has “thrown down” a mighty interesting “gauntlet”… 8)

Jimbo, what is it that you, with your "first laid-core eye (in 10mm straight core Kevlar)" that "has held up surprisingly well" throw it at that rates as "the nastiest jobs"?!
As I now know you're in the Virginia area, I can answer that in two words: Pine Trees.I know sailors love it, but to me, pine sap (and the trees that exude it) is God's [b][i]punishment[/i][/b] for something! Yuck! Pine Tree Genocide is what Jimbos do best!! I don't even want money, and I'll take out [i][b]any[/b][/i] pine with no collateral damage -- just let me!! Using "pet ropes" (i.e. "leftovers" & "trash") means I have to learn those bends!!! A "Bendmeister" I yam!!

And “surprising…” is “given the ugliness of my first splices, …”

And “surprising” given the reports like this:

"Kevlar is made of sterner stuff", though has a bad reputation for NOT holding up well in much flexing use.
Although I must confess, I rarely even approach the SWL of even DblBrd, so ...
How is it that you come to be dealing in such interesting stuff? --of such variety!?
!! Just lucky, I guess!! ::)

Seriously, I am very fortunate to know someone who thinks 26m of 10mm Kevlar is “garbage”, and lets me be the “trash man”. I just turned the first ~10 feet into a “strop”, mostly for eye-splicing practice. Given the cost of applying this stuff (time is money, and laid-core splices eat a lot of time), I’m not too surprised. Even as standing rigging, Kevlar is not as “kewl” as Spectra/Dyneema (creep, elongation, flex-wear, UV, weight, windage aloft, etc. – you know the score), so why bother? Not that Spectra/Dyneema is much cheaper or faster, but when they commit to “nothing but”, the old “economies of scale” start to kick in – and Spectra/Dyneema has apparently surpassed Kevlar in general popularity, which means the pricing schedule just looks better and better… Not to mention the trash can!!! :wink:

As for the advice to ""Waste" as much of your favorite rope as you need to, by destructive testing, until you know your splices will hold", who's funding this potentially costy effort? --at maybe $3 per foot,
I'm strictly a salvage operator, Dan! However, even if I had to pay full retail, I'd still rather fail my ropes (at least the first ones) on purpose, than at some time I happen to be busy with some other task, with the life of a tree or a truck or a friend "in the balance"... In all cases, I want [b][i]only[/i][/b] the "guest of honor" tree to fail.

And I only suggest that to reinforce the notion of “trust but verify”. And to keep a needful amount of healthy fear widely circulated, as cordage in the class about which we’re talking is usually used for “instantly-lethal” loads. Meaning you don’t get many “mistakes” before Darwin catches up with you.

and where does one get a handy test device, and maybe a cyclic loader to give more meaningful testing than a straight, slow pull?
Uh... We call that there a "front-end" loader down hyere, Bub. :) Actually, the term is "backhoe"... The "cyclic loading" is provided by a pickup truck with sand or something in the bed for "Big Mo" ("Mentum")...
(There is a report of testing done on a simple/quick'n'dirty rope-tuck splice --i.e., whole rope (not merely a strand) tucked through the lay twice--, and it showed the splice to be surprisingly strong, unless shock loaded, where it failed at about half the slow-pull load (where actually it didn't fail--the other end in the device failed).)
Yes, and Nautile & PABPRES have the opposite [url=http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/wa/98wa103.html][b][u]documentation[/u][/b][/url] -- including the death of a fellow (not a "feller", PABPRES!) who forgot Rule #1 -- "Don't DIE!" IMNERHO, There's a reason CWA calls that a "[b][i]Marline[/i][/b] Splice". I believe [b][i]you[/i][/b], DanL, because I have known you long enough to trust you, but I won't stand under one of those splices even if [b][i]CWA [u]himself[/u][/i][/b] put it in!
Btw, what is it about your whipping that's so "ugly"? --try some colored mason line or clear nylon monofilament. (:
Uh... Ya got me! One of the "whats" is: it's made in [b]PINK[/b] colored mason line! That and it just [b][i]is[/i][/b]. All that beautiful machine braiding, marred by ugly wrappings of {[i]whatever[/i]}... It looks like a Hangman's Noose! Ick. You've inspired me, though, with the mono suggestion. I will try it. Shakespeare's monofilament factory is here in town, so I can get lots of that! And when I [b][i]must[/i][/b] whip, I've found that the leftover Spectra core ends most riggers discard make dandy whipping. Not to mention button thread!!

But back to the OP…