So anyone here still practice the need to cut yourself,
liverpool lock tuck etc,minesweeping wire?
Cheers
Hi OP,
Yes, there are many including knotnow, myself and many others - from where do you hail?
SR
I have an album of pictures of LAMIs (Los Angeles Maritime Institute) Riggng Club class on splicing wire. Jose is our fearless leader/teacher. And I believe Squarerigger was one of Jose’s teachers.
The album may be found at http://photos.yahoo.com/lamivol, then just go to the albul titled “051003-Rigging Club”.
Note that the serving does not match the thimble used in the lesson. Jose had served over the wire for another purpose and never used it. So instead of wasting it, he used it for our instructions. Normally, the serving would only be on the area in the thimble. (Then served over after completion.)
Well done on the pics Curly,first time Ive seen right hand lay wire.
SR - Im downunder - Sydney
Regards
Hi again OP
Down under, eh? No wonder the line is all left laid then LOL - just kidding! You mentioned minesweeping wire - I tried that once here in the US on an old piece - it was so work-hardened that it broke every time you put any twist in it. What has been your experience with it?
SR
SR -I served on mine sweepers,never twisted when splicing,you gotta use a spike.
Slighty off topic ,anyone use a block and tackle to pull the tucks thru big stuff?
PS - nearly forgot..spike plus hammer
Cheers
Hi OP,
Never used anything large enough to warrant having to pull it through with B & T, but I have only worked line up to 1.25 inches diameter - I did see a forklift used once (in a photograph) to open the wire on a very large cable - seems like it was in the Phillippines and was about 36 inches circumference (my guess). My question about twist was stupid - not put twist in, take the twist out - the individual wires per strand were so thick and work-herdened, they broke when inserting for the tuck (using a 24 inch spike) did you have the raised knobs on the wire and what did you do about inserting them? Anyone else have experiences like this?
SR
Hi,
I’m new to the site. I spent 10 years in the British Merchant Navy about 30 or so years ago and have forgotten a hell of a lot about wire splicing and would like to rebuild my skills in this area.
I have Brion Toss’s Rigging Handbook and Raoul Graumont’s Splicing Wire & Fiber Rope – does anyone know of any other books or sites on the web that cover this topic?
Curly – your pics were very informative, thanks
Cheers
Hi Origami,
Welcome back to the tuck! I know that you were asking for books or reference material, but I think that if you want to rebuild your skills, there’s nothing like the old saw “Practice, practice, practice!” Seriously, grab a piece of wire rope from your friendly local hardware store - they probably have something about 1/4 or 3/8 inches to start with - apply your desired service over it or clap on a couple of wire seizings with the desired type of thimble and put the whole thing wires upward in your bench vise. The wire upward position allows you to stand and work the splice without having to bend over to get at the wire in the vise. Toss recommends using the vise flat and at elbow level, which is not the way the other full-time professional splicers I have seen and heard from do it, nor is it how I have practised the art, particularly when making a lot of splices. It is easier on your back and easier to get leverage if you put the wire upwards. Now you need to put a strain above the vise on the standing part of the wire, so rig up something to hold it up there while you unlay the strands a little. The strain you need is just enough to hold the wire up there while you work the splice. Now put on your unlaying stick, find your first strand and away you go! Toss’s book looks at the use of 19-strand wire and addresses the outer wires of that construction in pairs (there are six pairs around the outside of a 19-starnd construction) but your wire may be six or seven strand - just follow the same instructions but ignore references to pairs, instead using the word strand. If you need any other hints do come back to the site - we can help with specifics and get you going again. There are lots of little tips to getting even the above simple method even better and lots more in between, so don’t hesitate to ask when you have reached that stage. Lots of luck! ;D
SR
PS Curly’s pics were taken at a place near and dear to my heart - the Los Angeles Maritime Institute in San Pedro, where my good friend Jose Hernandez-Juviel is hard at work reviving and renewing the skills for others.
Hi Squarerigger,
Thanks for the encouragement. You’re absolutely right about the practice; I must get a stock of band-aids in before I start so I don’t bleed all over the garage.
I’ve got great admiration for Brion Toss but like you I’ve only ever spliced vertically in a vice – horses for courses, I suppose. I’ll let you know how I get on.
A guy I used to work with years ago told me that in the Royal Navy the bo’suns wouldn’t allow you to use a vice unless the wire was over 2 inches - must have been like wrestling with an angry squid!
Cheers
Don’t believe everything you hear - they are not allowed to splice wire in the RN now anyway - all wires have to be CE marked, dated, tested and checked and that can only be done by a certified rigging house.
That said the ‘Seaman’ specialist is still taught how to do it - just in case. I think you will find the Merchant marine going down the same path, if not, leading the way. Health and Safety is killing all fun.
Gordon
Hi again Origami and Hi to Gordon also,
I did learn how to splice horizontally, but when a master rigger (Joe Soanes) that I learned from told me to turn it up, I could not believe how much easier that made it! Thanks Joe for all your help on that and so many other tips! Like Gordon, I think the tale about Bosuns in the RN not allowing splices under 2 inches diameter to be done in a vise is just that - a tale! Did the RN only allow Molly Hogans? I can see doing one of those in 2 inch wire by hand, but not much above that. Gordon - a couple of interesting points you raised - first, is a CE a registered civil engineer? I thought that maybe the power of prayer (CE = Church of England) was taking it a bit far! ??? How does the CE mark it and do they have to have any special training to do that? Who does the training, testing and checking, and what are they checking to see? Also, how is it certified in use? I can imagine that any abuse is going to render the splice suspect, so who checks it once it is put in place? Does it have to have a specific cover or a certain specification of tucked appearance? Second a certified rigging house - how are they certified? In the USA we have certified splicers of Yale cordage, but no certification as such of wire or other rigging houses or individuals, other than by reputation of course. There are certified houses where wire rope swages and other wire rope termination fittings can be tested and certified, but not splices. I’d be interested to hear more about what goes on in the UK? I’ll try to find out what the USN does in their remaining dock facilities.
Origami, do let us know how your splicing goes and just how many of those Band-Aids you get through! Good luck! ;D
SR
Hi Lindsey,
Rather than me try and explain CE marking - take a look here
http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.htm
All wires in RN use are labeled with the date of manufacture, place of manufacture (which includes the splice), test details etc. Each time before a wire is used these details must be checked and a visual check of the wire made by a ‘responsible person’. That was 12 years ago, but I am sure it is now just as stringent if not more so - I would ask my son but he is away on holiday at the moment.
I did once witness a class of sailors being taught splicing and yes they were doing it with the wire horizontal. But when I think about it - there are very few places in a ship where you have more than about 7ft 6ins of headroom except the engine room and the hangar - so to be taught the ‘hard way’ may not be so silly after all. I do agree that it is easier vertical, so don’t get me wrong.
Gordon
If Gordon’s link does not work for you, try this one:
Willeke
Hi Oceanplats,
It is late at night and most members know to duck (avoid) my posts at this hour… so fair warning. Duck. I live in a very wild environment. Worn out wire rope is free. Thousands of KM’s of it. It is brittle, it is nasty, it is too stout for the task in my camp. It has never been at sea. It was used on highline logging and pulled out many tons of wood. I put “any eye” I can in to make it work for me. I published (in Knotting Matters) a variation on a flemish eye.. no my friend… not a Molly Hogan.. a variation between both… which I clap in a few minutes in “work hardended” line with no tools. I also get (to liberate or save from rusting away) a share of new or nearly new line that was too short for the task at hand and and just simply cast aside. So I get 100’ new lines which wil do well with proper splices (liverpool etc) and 2000’ lines which get some form of a “brittle line” loop. Of course the factor which helps is that I have only 10 or 20,000 pounds on line pull so the old worn out line isn’t too stressed.. and the new stuff is at a safe working load. The other point is that nobody comes here from LLoyds or OSHA or anyone…to look over my shoulder: What is get is my Wife, Alice, in my ear… ARE YOU SURE!!! If every agency had a wife looking over your shoulder you would make perfect splices… What? You think not? My deference to all the women who splice wire… if your Hubbie came down to the shop or on the deck and started in about how you didn’t… well just let me say… Wives and Husbands would make good safety inspectors. I know becasue I’ve chosen to do that all my life. She may drive me a bit bonkers but she will not let me be stupid (at least on this subject).
Hello Fairlead… numbered, certified.. CE marked… I must suggest… Until Alice says it is “safe to go” it may not be so. I am a bit of an outlaw. I trust Alice far more than I do the CE mark. She has so much more to lose. If OSHA misses by a bit… OhWell. Alice is looking out for her Hubbie.
I suggest that all safety inspections be done by a loved one. I know.. I know.. For some that may not be a spouse… well remember this is not a gvmnt assignment. I suggest you do not go aloft until someone who cares about you says your rig is good.
*I revised my post today. This bit about safety. I suggested that the best safety inspector was a spouse. Bad thing to offer to the world internet. Isn’[t that a shame? Also… just because I trust my splice and my spouse … no reason for anyone to do so. It isn’t even a splice, well is it? And a valued other may not be a spouse… So here is the disclaimer: The skils offered up in this forum are for knotting members and have never been certified by anyone. .. should not done at home.. require prior inspection by a regerested authority. Use all or any at your own risk.
Hi Gordon, Willeke & Roy,
Great to hear from you Roy, and thanks for your contributions as always! Which issue of KM did you have your crossover splice (not a Molly Hogan but like it and made by hand without the aid of a safety net) put into? I should like to refresh my memory, because I cannot recall it now - let me know by PM if you will. Gordon, thanks for the information on CE marking, and thanks to Willeke too for the amended version. I see from their web-site that they are an agency that provides marking to show that a product complies with EU standards, but I cannot find on their web-site what the standards are for a wire rope splice unless I cough up some money. Do you happen to know the specifics? I have written to them asking for details that would cover wire rope terminal splices, thinking that I should start somewhere.
This is a most useful forum - there is so much knowledge out there - it is a good job we have this resource - thanks again to all! ;D
Lindsey
Hi Lindsey et al,
It was Knotting Matter # 74 and the text and illustrations were original and drawn in my pen, from “life” (a eye in hand) but as I said in the first sentence: I learned it from a book… and then confirmed it in the field. I have used it in all circumstance for 30 years. The book I learned from is still the text for Telco cable work.. I think. My problem with my presentation is that I offered it as an “expedient”.. a “Hell Fire” method; but all the feed back came as if I were speaking for LLoyds. Can’t anyone understand the word "expedient’?
Bye the way if you use rail road spikes and a old growth fir stump instead of a riggers vise you can put in a NW loggers eye in a few minutes. Of course you will have the line at the horizon. I still “put in” the traditional seaman’s splices on the stump as it is the only vise (carefull now… the vise… not vice) that I have.
I’ve looked at my post and my last post and all that has been put up by others. I hope it helps. I think I am on the thread. Often I ramble on and my review process seems to indicate there were other ramblings, more off track than mine. The core of it was that the splices that I make are not “approved” by anyone. This is O.K. for me and the next time I need a loop I’ll call upon one of the gainsayers and they can trek up here and make my loop. Food and lodging will be free. Please do not call OSHA or LLoyds (this is a small joke as LLBean is an outfitter in USA who provides fine stuff but no insurance for bad knots (but will replace any item without question forever.. not some limited term) so I think of the lifetime trust of LLBean at the opposite end of LLoyds of London. (not bashing lloyds… just insurance in general as in opposition to “forever guarnatee”.) My telco eye will hold and work and you can make it with no tools and no blood. O.K. You must cut the wire. You can do it a thread at a time if you wish. Not a big project. More tools you can cut it a strand at a time. I am pretty sure that when you need this eye all you will have is the multi tool you carry at your belt. OOPS! you don’t have a multi tool? Perhaps you are not working with old steel wire rope.
I am an odd knotter. I think there may be others. I use things that work. I have no respect for “certification agencies”. I am an engineer (well if I say “left handed” that is rude to the left handed… well .. I’ve been workiing in an engineering field for 38 years… ) with no certification. I think most folks with certification in knotting or splicing or rigging would question the right of the certification board (if no personal loss was involved).
Since that is not the case I’ll put in the final word. Don’t try this at home! The Flemish Eye, finished as in my post to Knotting Matters, is dangerous, nasty and forbidden and offered in the pages of KM and on this site for humor only. There, that should protect us all.
Mate your more complex than the topic lol -good posts,
I watched a sailor do a long splice on a mean 2 inch diam at a wharf longtime ago -Port Hedland. Western Australia.
I had no bandaids ,