adjustable grip bend

Practical Knots
1

Please note that in much of this thread I seem to argue with nobody. This is because Xarax felt the need to remove his posts apparently to somehow defend against people supposedly lying about what he said.

The scenario is you’ve got one end of each of two ropes. The other ends are attached to fix objects which you either cannot access or cannot access fast enough to save Gotham City and the girl too. You’ve got to tie these two ropes into one AND pull them tight, and do it fast, to stop Gotham City from crumbling into oblivion. There’s not enough time nor rope for a trucker’s hitch.

I tried a couple of things and also looked around to see what is known about this kind of bend. What I’ve found that is known is that apparently ashley mentioned using back to back tautline hitches, fisherman’s bend style. This is hard to tighten well, security could be better, and at least half of Gotham will be destroyed before we can tie it. This is being called an adjustable bend on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjustable_bend

Somewhere I found a site describing a knot by the same name, but using an adjustable grip hitch. It’s a bit more secure, and maybe a little easier to tighten, but it seems to me that maybe this was constructed not very creatively by simply switching out Ashley’s idea with the AGH which someone probably personally preferred for tying adjustable loops.

However, outside of a loop, the TL and AGH do not behave the same as far as I can tell. The TL requires that the s-part is loaded from BOTH ends. The TL cannot transfer 100% of the tension from the S-part directly to the returning part of the loop. If the standing side of the loop is loose, the TL slips. For this reason you must tie two TL’s to make a bend, and this is also why this bend is not terribly secure and partially why it’s hard to tighten.

However the AGH can completely transfer the tension without slipping. This means that you only need ONE AGH to make a bend. Better yet, if you tie the bend with just one, you can adjust the connection to shorten/tighten the rope, just by pulling on the two tails. This gives you much more grip to tighten than the usual TL way of tightening and to me it seems easier to tighten than two AGH’s too.

It’s probably less secure than two, but still more secure than two TL’s. You could always back it up after tightening and for that you probably would choose a pair of half hitches not another AGH. Then you get your rope tensioned tighter, fast enough to save Gotham and you secure it better in the end.

I’ve only tried it on slippery twine.

Anyway, I’d like to hear of different/better solution.

[b]UPDATE:

  1. The winning solution right now, proposed by Twine, is a round turn and two half-hitches (I even like one slipped half hitch for non-critical use) tied around whatever eye loop you like.
    [/b]
2

I’m also kind of liking the AGH slipped and eskimo style as a binding knot. This has the same bend-like behaviour allowing pulling the two tails to tighten (pulling the slipped one in the right matter of course). The funny thing is I never cared much about this knot as a tautline replacement.

3

It seems that yes, now I know what these are being called!
and in fact this:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3656.msg24640#msg24640

Is the one I described (which I called eskimo, meaning reversed), as you say(misunderstood, never mind), made even better if ultimately paired/backed with a non-adjustable knot.

This also works non-mid air though. Unlike the finicky tuatline (which I enjoy for its finickyness), the AGH can handle being poked and prodded from different directions without slipping. It does feel slightly more precarious around an object than mid-air though. I’d still use it un-backed that way for non-critical purposes though.

4

Yes, those two half hitches are also neat. I wasn’t really looking for an adjustable loop though, I was looking for an adjustable bend, of course a purely ring-loaded adjustable loop(important distinction as proven by the TLH) and an adjustable bend are almost the same thing give or take the pressure from the side, and yes I should have thought to look for binders in the first place. I think I found what I wanted with the AGH, but yours is also interesting and yes I guess should pull tighter. I will play with it.

5

Except this isn’t true. The TLH is SOOO bad. Maybe I’m miss-understanding some technicality of your definition of reversed adjustable loops which already excludes it.

6

I guess what I was really looking for was something simple, where simple probably means tiable with one end and more or less with one knot. The fixed plus adjustable solution did come to mind of course, but it’s seems inelegant. It’s like using an ABL and a double dragon just to tie two slack pieces of rope together. It would be a pretty solid bend, but it’s not really a nice solution.

7

If you don’t have enough line for even a simple pulley simulator, you probably don’t have enough line for adjustable loops either and will probably be forced to an ascender-type knot.

You won’t get a lot of tension. Security isn’t going to be high, but if it’s just a tensioned line, the line likely won’t be seeing a lot of motion and wiggling anyway.

Is a tourniquet-type lever allowable? ;D

8

Well maybe it’s just me, but with those double double half hitches Gotham burned to the ground long before I finished tying them.

As for adjustable loop, I’m not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean. You mean two opposing loops with one using any tautline hitch or whatever, or you mean using the knot of say a preztel loop but as a binder? The latter doesn’t work, but I think you meant the first.

I think the AGH and ascender type knots are pretty similar ideas. I’ll have to play with which works better. Even if you start with barely enough rope, once you pull tight you’ve bought yourself enough rope to tie a backing knot and actually then I think the agh or ascender are pretty secure.

9

Oh as for the tourniquet you might save the city and the girl, but she will leave you and run off with the super-villain.

10

I’m thinking the BatBend comes to the rescue! ::slight_smile:

Seems like you will need at least some mechanical advantage. Just the weight of the ropes will be hard work to tension, given the assumption that they will be long. Then, if you are truly swinging and rescuing from this tight rope I don’t think that a friction type hitch is suitable. Enough tension with a friction hitch and you will strip the outer sheath from the core.
And I would be concerned that the anchors are tied with the best knots and that they are solid! We’re talking some serious loads.

Wait for Batman. :wink:

SS

11

@xarax,

I agree that I need to tie those more to have a chance at liking them. Certainly my first attempt was very clumsy and I don’t seem to have the right idea for how to do it well yet. At this juncture I’m not sure if I will come to like them or not, so I will see. For the moment I can tie two fixed ABL’s for the trucker’s hitch MUCH faster, but then if I’d only seen a picture of them, certainly on first try that would not be the case. For now I’m having trouble seeing how those double doubles can end up faster/easier, although they do use less rope.

12

Hi Tex, I think I have an easy and quick solution to your riddle.

First tie a fixed eye, a bowline, a double dragon, a perfection knot or whatever you feel most comfortable with, on the end of one rope. Personally, I’d use a perfection knot because it’s the quickest to tie (for me) and in this application speedy tying is more important than making sure the knot won’t jam. Then take the other rope and tie it to the eye you just made. Use a round turn and two half hitches for that, because that is quick and easy to tie under load. Make sure you haul as tight as possible the rope you reeved through the fixed eye before you lock it in place with two half turns around the standing part, but also after you formed the round turn. You will (with your Batman strength) get the line as taut as a guitar string, I’m sure. If the round turn causes too much friction with your ropes, just do without it, but then you have to pinch the line harder with your fingers to keep the tension while you tie the half hitches.

This knot really is adjustable, even though it at first seems not to be, because a round turn and two half hitches is both easy to tie and untie while under tension. Just make sure you pinch hard at the round turn to stop slippage.

Good luck saving Gotham City!
Twine

13

The round turn and half hitches isn’t a terrible idea. I like xarax’s double half hitches for the most creative solution. They are surprisingly effective. I thought they’d roll and grip too hard at the same time, but they don’t. It’s not fun to tie. I don’t like the more complex double, collared versions.

14

The first thing that came to my mind was the solution Twine mentioned, except without the round turn. It’s like a standard Trucker Hitch but with an ideal 2:1 MA minus friction. I actually just tried this with various rope, and it works well.

If you’re having trouble with the pinching, you can add a nip turn to the loop before placing the other rope through the nip turn. That further reduces the MA, but increases the friction to facilitate tie-off.

Of course, if you have more rope, you could do a standard Trucker or maybe even a Versatackle (which would be my choice if I had enough rope).

A problem with trying to do the round turn is that the loop’s legs are going to be difficult to pry apart if there is a lot of tension on them. You don’t have to pry apart much, but it will still be a little fiddly and something you’ve never done before probably. It won’t be like making a RT on a metal ring for example.

There are two problems with Xarax’s two-sided nipturn idea. First, it is difficult to tie and is easy to tie wrongly. If I didn’t practice this all the time (and I wouldn’t), then I would mess it up. I sometimes tie a Gleipnir wrongly, even though it is simpler and practiced regularly. Second, if those nips meet but you need more tension, then you have to start over with the difficult tie process and repeat until you get it right.

15

I agree with Z’s points about X’s knots. Even in small scale tests I ran out of rope too easily on first try. This compounds the tying difficulty because you must move farther back and forth tying and dropping and tying and picking up and threading, etc. You can’t tie it with both ropes in your hands the whole time very easily and that’s very clumsy. If you don’t pre-tighten well, the loops roll, then you pre-tighten but you’ve used up more rope. X, it’s not difficult to tie as in conceptually/mentally, it’s difficult as in clumsy/cumbersome. A trucker’s hitch is more conceptually difficult, but it’s more comfortable to tie.

A trucker’s hitch (and in this case I see no distinction at all with versatackle, which is just TH tied between two loops on the rope) has the same problem though about undertightening, but at least to me it’s easier to tie (the loops stay more stable while you’re tying, you don’t have to pre-tighten them after threading, just bust out your fastest loops, (the slip-knot loop is certainly easier and faster than X’s half hitches to answer his question), zig, zag, done.

I’ll try the round turn and 2 half hitches. Haven’t had a chance yet.

Regarding rat-tail stopper, it can adjust?

By the way, don’t expect me to declare this “solved” at some point. There are many different solutions with different pro’s and cons and that is how it will be.

X I’ll read your post more later, no time now.

16

Tie an Arbor Knot with the second rope (instead of fishing reel) passing through the slip loop. Use the Arbor like a ratchet. Then, tie a Half Hitch lock to secure things. The Arbor Knot is acceptable because I don’t care about jamming. I’m just trying to save Gotham. Otherwise, I would NOT tie an Arbor.

17

I thinks that Ashley essential got this one right in the first place with ABOK 1472, anticipating Batman’s need to join two lines together in a hurry, apply tension, and save the girl (and gotham too I suppose)

In ABOK 1472 he shows two rolling hitches (ABOK 1734) tied to each other’s standing ends. The one improvement I would add to this is to use ABOK 1735 rather than 1734. Ashley tells us that 1734 works best on a pole, and 1735 works best to hitch to another rope (my personal experience is that he’s spot on with this assertion)

So, annoyingly, Ashley calls both of these two knots (ABOK 1734, and 1735) rolling hitches. I prefer Brion Toss’ naming of 1734 the ‘rolling hitch’ and 1735 the “rigger’s hitch”.

So, back to back rigger’s hitches would be my solution as an adjustable grip bend. In tying the Rigger’s hitch, after you’ve made two turns, you have an intermediate knot, the awning hitch (ABOK 83). While this knot isn’t very secure, it is strong, and will take tension.

So Batman, could quick tie an awning hitch, thwarting the joker [POW!], then make the final turn and tuck to form the rigger’s hitch, before leaving the scene to save the girl [sigh].

Batman only tied one rigger’s hitch, but in my comic book, that’s plenty to hold the tension [TWwaaaaaang] and save the girl. If, in your comic book that’s not quite strong enough, batman finishes the full two Rigger’s hitch bend. Or…

Once batman finished the two wraps of the awning hitch, and pulls tension, he will then know in blink of an eye if this hitch will hold the necessary load to save gotham… lets say it wont [gasp].. then batman can simple tuck another turn into the awning hitch, in the manner of tying a rigger’s version of ashley’s saftey-belt hitch (ABOK 452) or a camel hitch (ABOK 215). [ker-POW!]

Names of knots are funny things, I mostly agree with the naming paradigm laid out in the wikipedia page, with the addition of the “rigger’s hitch”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taut-line_hitch

ABOK 1734 Rolling Hitch
ABOK 1735 Rigger’s Hitch
ABOK 1736 Magnus Hitch
ABOK 1855 Midshipman’s Hitch (1735 tied on it’s own standing part as an adjustable loop)
ABOK 1856 Taut line Hitch (1734 tied on it’s own standing part as an adjustable loop)
ABOK 1857 (1736 tied on it’s own standing part as an adjustable loop) and yeah… I dunno what this one is named… err a “less twisty taut line hitch”? errr yeah that’s a mouthful.

PS. I fully admit that my preferred name of ABOK 1735 has an element of professional vanity. None the less, having two similar but different knots with the same name is confusing. “Hey Xarax, tie that off with a rolling hitch” “I tied a rolling hitch but is’s slipping” “Did you tie ABOK 1735, or 1734” “err.. let me get the book and check… Oh I tied 1734” “oh Xarax, I meant for you to tie 173FIVE!, not 173four! How could you possibly have misunderstood me?” :wink:

18
Of course, to claim that the Holy Book has mediocre knots, is a blasphemy... :) - but I have been thrown on fire many times, and I am used to this kind of "learning" the Truth !

I’m preparing the firewood and have the match at hand Xarax. :slight_smile: I respect your criticism of Ashley, but I find it lacking respect for Ashley. He describes the method used by generations of sailors “Why? Well, because thousands of sailors in thousands of ships long forgotten, had discovered that it was the best way.” [quoted from The Arts of the Sailor by Hervey Garrett Smith] Perhaps Xarax, you do indeed know better than Ashley, or generations of sailors. Perhaps!

My personal experience is that the rolling hitch and rigger’s hitch are fantastic knots with a lot of utility. If you’d like me to try your “locked double cow hitch” I would be happy to judge it against Ashley’s wisdom of generations of sailors, and give you an honest assessment. To do so, please provide me detailed tying instructions, with illustrations please. I know you posted a description earlier with pictures of the final knot, but as Tex observed, it’s clumsy, and easy to tie incorrectly. As I am both clumsy and often incorrect, detailed instructions would be nice. You do, after all, ask me to tie it “just one time in my life”, and I would hope to tie it correctly that one time. :slight_smile:

19

Sorry, I can’t keep up with the discussion now, too busy for now. Regarding the suggestion to use Ashley’s two tautline hitches I covered that in my first post and those comments were based on trial. I find a single Adjustable Grip hitch superior to two Tautline hitches in every way, on slippery string at least, and I find it CAN be tightened on already tensioned rope.. up to a point at least, a point far past a rat-tail stopper I guess. It’s no where near as tight of course as one of the MA solutions, and maybe not even as the round-turn half hitches solutions, but it beats the TLH’s for reasons I explained.

20

Oh, I do agree with xarax that it’s likely that an ideal one-knot kind of solution would depend on the rope type. I have doubts for instance about the AGH working decently on any rope that isn’t pretty slippery, but it is modifiable via the number of turns used.