Xarax, I think Evans described the same knot as the Bull Clove when he was describing the EStar, but this is certainly NOT what he tied. He tied something weaker.
What happens in this situation? Surely his images of how to tie it rules, not how he describes it?
I will try out the two versions on the Bull Clove also (ie selecting which end I make the tail), but I doubt I will be able to see much difference with my very crude testing methods (I can only tell by feel how much load I am applying).
I think there will be a big difference between the EStar and Bull Clove though, hence my persistence with all of this. This makes a real world difference to sailors trying to tie a hitch in Dyneema on bigger diameter objects.
Lucky ! 
We should NOT “lay claim” on any knot !
Let me “explain” it, with the help of a saying that I had imagined right now :).
Man is not the measure of any-thing. Because, if the thing is a small and insignificant one, he is always greater than it. And if the thing is a great and significant one, he is always smaller than it.
( I almost listen the noise of Protagoras bones, as he turns in his grave !
There is NO “my” knot - and, for that matter, there is no “anybody s knot” ! Knots are there, in the KnotLand, and who is going to discover/meet them there “first”, is only a matter of pure luck… One should not even think of having any property claims on luck !
I simply prefer to call the “new” knots it had happened to me to meet, with descriptive names, so the present or future knot-tyer would have an added aid, when he is memorizing them. The knot I had shown is just a variation of the well-known Bull hitch, where the double nipping loop-based nipping “neck”/“tube” has been replaced by a Clove hitch, period. So, the name Bull Clove hitch, is what the knot itself demands, not what me or anybody else wishes…
We should simply ASK the discoverer of the EStar hitch, which knot he did tie, and if he was/is aware or interested in the differences. However, in this very simple knot, which is such a simple implementation of the almost jamming ability of the primordial Clove hitch, I, for one, would find very difficult to use a “copy-righted” name ! Bull Clove hitch, or something like this, sounds OK to me.
You should better ask Evans about that… He knows an infinitely larger number of things on knots tied on Dyneema, than me- who had been able only to see them, in f… pictures !
Badly worded on my part LOL.
Who gets the honour of going down in history as being the inventor of the knot then?
That is my question :).
The EStar and Bull Clove are two quite different hitches. You can’t call them by the same name.
Evans has obviously invented the EStar Hitch as he shows images of it.
Who invented the other hitch, the Bull Clove?
As I had pointed out in my previous post, and I had repeated a number of times in this Forum, I think that the simple knots are "discovered’, not “invented” - as Platonic this might sound ! Given the laws of the Universe we know, the possible simplest knots are determined right from the first billionth of billionth of a second … A more complex knot, like the decorative knots, may well be created somewhere, but it would most probably not - as any work of art may have been created somewhere in the Universe already, but, even if this had happened, it would had been a very rare event, a miraculous event, indeed.
Now, if you believe in eternal after life, you are not interested in history, of course ! And if you do not believe in eternal after life, or in any after life at all, why on Earth or Heavens are you interested in what would happen after the atoms composing your ex-body would had been spread in a cold, almost empty expanding Universe ?
God knows !
I like your attitude :).
My question was asked simply from curiosity. I totally agree it makes no difference in the big scheme of things.
Now to get back to the main issue.
What Evans calls an EStar is, I very strongly suspect, not the best version of this bend and the two versions need to be named differently. The two versions in fact end up looking quite different when tied.
I propose the second version is called the EStar-XX :).
Just like the left handed bowline is not the same as the bowline and would only be used if a novice had tied the bowline incorrectly, the EStar is not the same as an EStar-XX and the latter should be used in preference.
So, yes, Grog have animated the EStar Hitch correctly, but I think it is not the best alternative. These two bends need to be tested in unsheathed Dyneema on a “pole” of wide diameter, such as a bollard (ours on board is 10 cm, probably even thicker diameters such as 15+ cm that are found on some jetties, should be tested if 10 cm is inconclusive).
I will repeat this for the last time : It is of no importance whatsoever what the “Animated Grog” site selects and presents as “EStar hitch” ! ( Although I doubt that the author of the hitch had not been involved in this selection/presentation ! )
What matters is what the author had tied - and the knot he himself had shown that he had tied, on pictures published either in in his pdf file (1) or in his site (2), is obviously NOT the Bull Clove hitch ! What also matters is what he had in his mind - because he might well had posted the wrong pictures ( it happens ! ). On this problem, I can imagine only one solution : ask him !
Actually, it matters tremendously. Grogs is what the majority of boating people are now probably using when learning how to tie knots. The site is repeatedly recommended on forums. Many people now use tablets and the Grog app is also recommended. Frighteningly rapidly, books are being used less and less. I started with maybe 200 on board and am now down to less than 20. The Kindle is King. The internet is becoming the source of learning and Grogs is at the moment the gold standard for internet sites on how to tie boating knots. Dyneema is a tricky line to work with and currently the EStar hitch is the best hitch available to sailors. If the EStar-XX is better, this should be made known.
Since viewing the pdf, I see that Grogs has presented the knot just how Evans tied it in his pdf. I may be wrong, but I think there is a better version, the one I have called the EStar-XX. It would benefit sailors if this was load tested on common bollards eg 10 cm such as ours, and Grog modified if necessary.
I have asked the question. I sent him a personal message on the cruising forum site he is a member of with a link to the thread I started about the EStar. Despite the fact that he has logged in several times since I sent my PM, I have had no reply and he has not responded on the thread.
How long is it since you posed your questions to him that you have received no reply to?
I hope they use the tools that were offered to them for free, without any strings attached ( commercials, for instance ) : their own mind and their own fingers !
I do not know how the Bull Clove hitch will work when tied on Dyneema. My interest was fuelled by the examination of a number of other such two-wrap tight hitches ( some of them TIB, too ), which were presented in this Forum (1)(2)(3)(*). While I was searching for a well-balanced, tight adjustable loop, I had noticed that the Clove hitch was an almost jammingly tight nipping structure (4) - and so I had tried it as a “lock” of the Cow hitch, in place of the double nipping loop used in the ordinary / common Bull hitch. For some other, inferior ways to improve the Bull hitch, see (5).
( I do not know if Evans had ever read the PM I had send to him - he is a busy man, he seems to enjoy his wonderful life-style and his many interests ( among them, his many tests of ropes and knots ) so much, I did nt wish to bother him too much. )
P.S. Notice that NONE of them is in the “Grog” site… although they are the best we have ! So much for the quality of your beloved source of knotting wisdom !
The website is free and is all that I use. My mind just tunes out of any ads on websites. Can’t say I could tell you what one single one of them was for on Grogs, apart from their app LOL.
The app is not free, but inexpensive.
Understanding all this better now, when I look at your Bull Clove hitch, I see that it has no tail. You have made this a hitch that is based on the Cow hitch. The Cow hitch has no tail. There are two hitches with a tail that can result from the Bull Clove hitch.
The hitch I presented in reply #6 of this thread has a tail and the hitch must be tied in this manner (or can be reversed in a mirror image way). It is a different hitch to using the other tail in your knots. The tail CANNOT be reversed. It is the hitch Evans described, but did not actually tie. I have named this new hitch the EStar-XX.
I too, have no idea yet if it will perform better, but I hope my tests at the bow on our 10 cm bollard using unsheathed Dyneema may reveal some info. Otherwise, load testing under similar conditions certainly will. These tests will be necessary regardless, as my method is very crude.
Is any member here able to perform these load tests for me using Dyneema on a large diameter ‘pole’ (eg 10-15 cm)? I have no access to load testing equipment.
Maybe Evans will be able to do this, but I do not really want to approach him a second time regarding this issue.
This issue is of great relevance to current sailors, as Dyneema is being used more on board boats, particularly racing yachts, but even on cruising ones like ours.
In summary, this is the EStar-XX hitch from the front:
This is the EStar-XX hitch from the back.
It can be reversed in a mirror image way around the vertical axis.
Xarax, I note you added a PS after I quoted your post and I am responding now.
What is critical when it comes to knots for sailors, is what is happening out there on the water and what information is filtering through to those using knots when sailing. There may be some wonderful knots in the threads you linked (when my internet is better I will really enjoy reading them, at the moment pages are taking ages to load and I am concentrating just on vital stuff when online).
If anyone on the forum thinks they know of new knots that may be useful for sailors, I plead with you to get them out there and visible, not just in threads here or registered somewhere.
Grog is not my “beloved source of knotting wisdom”. I am just reporting here that like it or not, Grog is currently the main online source for knots for sailors, new and old. It is easy to access, easy to search and the animations make it very easy to learn to tie the knots. They are also presented reversed. There is a nice concise explanation with each knot. It is understandably a popular site. It is what is in current use out in the real world. Books are used little now and will be used even less in the future.
If members here have discovered new knots suitable for sailing, get some load tests done, checking a wide variety of line diameters and line types (the same knot will not necessarily be the best for all line diameter or line type). If they are bends then test a variety of different diameters for the two lines (ie do the knots only work for certain combinations). I think the most common lines currently used sailing are double braided polyester, lines with a high tech inner core like spectra with a normal cover, nylon, and more recently unsheathed Dyneema (popular now for soft shackles). Line manufacturers would probably provide line at no charge if you contacted them. They are keen for good knots to be found that are suitable for their products.
Test it, document it, report it to Grog or form a new website of your own that is as easy to use as Grogs and get that knowledge out there. If anyone would enjoy doing this I am happy to liaise between you and the sailing community.
Who else but passionate knot tying members here will be doing this? It would be a fabulous community service, not just an intellectual exercise.
PS I think that this will mean little to you, but I named the EStar-XX hitch in honour of Starzinger and Xarax. I think back in January both of you were just a breath away from discovering this new hitch that may, in time, turn out to be widely used by sailors.
I have presented this knot to Cruisers Forum. I hope someone there is able to do load tests using Dyneema and making the pole bollard diameter (eg 10-15 cm). This is where I think the EStar-XX hitch will perform better than the EStar. It may still not be a great hitch for this purpose, but if it is not, maybe some of you here can come up with different suggestions.
It would be very useful to know how much larger the bollard can be compared to the line diameter before the strength of the EStar-XX hitch becomes very poor (50% strength is deemed acceptable at the moment, as it is the best we have, I would think under 30% of line strength is getting completely unacceptable). Why such a low % may be acceptable is that the line is not just used for its strength, but for its weight.
That is what you believe/hope it happens ! The art and science of advertising ( or brain washing ), is thousands of years old - do not underestimate those guys ! If you let them walk freely in your mind s backyard, they will make you believe any-thing ( existing or non-existing thing )
In what I had shown ( and had dared to call according to what it is, i.e., just a tight Bull hitch using a Clove hitch as a “locking” “neck” ), the Standing and the Tail ends can be “reversed” - although the difference, when the hitch is tied on “ordinary” material and around a thick enough pole, is not noticeable ( and that is why I had chosen to show pictures of this hitch, where its “almost” symmetrical nature is clearly manifested ).
Now, we can, indeed, anticipate that the “security” ( regarding the slippage of the Standing and/or Tail end ) will vary, if/when the relative diameters of the rope and the pole will vary. How much, I have no idea… It would be great to persuade somebody to test those things, but I have never been able to advertise successfully the need for any test, on any knot … It seems that, regarding buying or selling ads, I am totally worthless .
Well of course the tail can be reversed, but what you end up with then is a different hitch. Name it whatever you like, but it is not the Bull-clove and it is NOT the EStar-XX. To form the latter the tail can only be the one I have selected. The security difference between the EStar-XX and whatever you want to call the other one may be small, but I think in Dyneema with a large diameter pole it will be obvious.
My gut instinct is that the EStar-XX will be the stronger of the two options for the above conditions. My gut reactions has served me well so far when it comes to knots LOL :). Only load testing will tell. There is a possibility of course the other currently unnamed one will be better.
I have no idea by the way what it takes to get a knot on Grog. Do you have to pay?? I would think any knot adequately tested that is shown to be a better or significantly easier knot than they currently list would make it onto their site.
If Evans ever replies to me I will ask what he had to do to get his knot accepted and I will pass on the information here.
Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can’t a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?
My thread on the double sheet bend is a classic example. I do not believe the best DSB is currently being learnt by sailors. They are scared to rock the boat and try anything different. What is being taught “must of course be right”. No one here is interested. As one member here commented on my other thread “if it ain’t broke why try and fix it”. Very strange attitudes LOL.
If a load tester is a available to any of you, don’t just look at inventing new knots. Go test all the favourites out that sailors use. There are no more than about a dozen common ones. What is best in what diameter and what materials? Is there a better alternative we should be using.
Some of our criteria are:
Then start testing salty line that has been in use. It will not necessarily perform the same way brand new line does.
As I said earlier what works for what types of materials and what diameters?
There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is a weird approach.
Hi Roo
Nice to see a fellow Aussie here :).
What do you consider the most secure bend for lines of different diameter if a) the knot needs to be untied and b)it is OK if the knot has to be cut off? Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?
These are the types of things sailors need to know.
I will look at your knot list more closely later. The trigger bend I am totally unfamiliar with. I am all consumed with the EStar-XX hitch at the moment and I am keen to go test it at the bow on our bollard using Dyneema tomorrow. It was too hot today.
By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline.
It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the water bowline and not an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
Sorry, if I come across as sounding so insistent about this practical importance of these issues to sailors, but they truly are important to us :).
It’s just an Aussie-sounding nickname. I reside in the US. I’ll have to get to your queries another time as other duties call. It may warrant the start of a new thread to keep things on track. You might state your application that requires dyneema.
With its strength and low weight Dyneema is being used more and more on board yachts, particularly racing boats. It would be used dramatically more if we knew how to secure knots in this material.
One use for example would be the initial portion of a snubber line (ie between the bow and the nylon). A splice is no good in this application as the snubber is often under considerable tension and you want to be able to throw this off in a hurry. How do you attach the Dyneema securely to the cleat or bollard at the bow so that it can still be thrown off? The forces on the snubber and chain can be considerable. If Dyneema is used as the initial bit of the snubber it needs to hold well - we want to know the best possible way of securing it.
We need the best loop, hitch and bend, preferably one that can be tied quickly in the dark, and preferably undone (although the best one if it does not have to be undone would be great too). We generally rely on muscle memory for tying knots, so they can’t be complicated. We apparently have a secure stopper at the moment, but I find it is relatively slow to tie.
There are fabulous new materials out there that we just can’t utilise well as we don’t know how to secure them.
Lots of boats now use soft shackles, even cruising yachts (why I have a fair bit of new Dyneema on board at the moment). Under load these soft shackles amazingly break at the stopper knot, not at the peak of the bit that goes over it. A Diamond Head is currently used as the best stopper knot (it meeds to be bulky so the loop of the shackle will never slide over the top. What would be a better knot to use at the end of these?
All that aside, just the best knots in all the common line use eg double braided polyester and sheathed spectra etc would be great. All the old traditional knots were designed for natural fibres that did not slip easily. They are not necessarily the best knots to tie now.
For example I am challenging what is the best double sheet bend to use just in plain common double braided polyester of different diameters. No one seems at all concerned that the version currently taught is not the more secure of the two versions (one version is just a snugged version of the other and very oddly the un-snugged version is taught).
We need so much more information and not of the variety “how about this, give it a go”. No one wants to be using knots they are uncertain about.
I could go on and on… 