Error in Grog Animated Knots animation?

Practical Knots
41

Let me restate that the Bull Clove hitch I had tied and tried was meant to be a “tight hitch” ( which means, to be a hitch and/or a binder as well ) if/when tied on “ordinary” material. I have no idea how it will behave if/when tied on Dyneema - and I do not even can tell if it will hold at all !
My gut instinct tells me to avoid predictions of how those very slippery materials work - I would had never anticipated that the triple fisherman s knot can slip, but it turned out that it does ! However, regarding security, I think that if the #1 Bull Clove hitch, or whatever you wish to call it, will or will not hold, the #2 Bull hitch will or will not hold, too. What percentage of the MBS will they hold, that I can not even imagine.. Now, regarding strength, I think that the differences will be even less, if any. Strength is a black box to me, into which I was never able to enter - not that I had any particular interest to do this !

I guess that we should first be able to talk to each other politely and respectfully, which, when it comes to knot-tyers, to my knowledge, is a very difficult thing ! :slight_smile:

The exactly same thing can be said for ALL the “best” knots, used in ALL fields, rescue and climbing included ! But we should not be discouraged by this : It was always like that ! :slight_smile:

42

Basically, you contact them and ask. Nicely. The Grogono family has a contact page.

Regarding stress testing equipment, there must be some of you that live near each other. Or does the guild have headquarters? Cannot the guild purchase a load tester? Or can't a few of you get together and buy one? Evans obviously has one. I doubt he is testing knots commercially. I think he is doing it to benefit sailors and spread the knowledge.
Is there such a testing tool to be purchased? As knots are rather varied, chances are better that you rig something that tests the parameters you seek on a per knot basis.
So, to put in a plea again to all you keen knot tyers. Can some of you step down from those lofty ivory towers and do something practical with your talents and help the community?
One thing to remember here is that the IGKT is not an official body or an academy. There are no certificates handed out for levels of skill. The membership allows you to use the logotype. The IGKT is a bunch of people interested in knots.
There is unbelievably so much currently not known regarding the best knots for sailing. I bet so many improvements are possible, particularly as all the lines used now are not what would have been used a century or more ago when the current knots were discovered. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a weird approach.
Feel free to hop to it. Nobody is paid to do that sort of work. And few are dedicated full time to knots.
43

You’re confusing things. “dbl. braid” is construction,
“nylon” is fibre --which might come in dbl.braid.

“doubt it would work in (bare) Dyneema” : indeed,
there is a thread or two on this site of recent vintage
with EStar contributing the most amazing results of
things that didn’t work --absolutely incredible!!!
(E.g., #1452 with the SParts turning 360 vs 180
degrees and so collaring each other, and then the
tails tucked twice !!! -THAT slipped, eventually!
(You might search for “bowled over”, which is how
I described it.)

Possibly, EStar has been working with the worst of
HMPE material (type & thinness !?), as his results
are more severe than some others. (OTOH, others
are not reporting quite so clearly as is he.)

By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a [i]bowline[/i]. It would be great to know if the [i]water bowline[/i] is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the [i]water bowline[/i] and not an ordinary [i]bowline[/i] with a Yosemite finish?
Because the SPart does more turning in the one case, and this is the part one is concerned about coming loose; it is also the part that can just roll and flow rope out from the eye into the SPart in HMPE line.

BTW, beware the maybe false distinction between
sheathed and bare HMPE : in some cases, it is the
slippage of the HMPE core that, despite appearances
of a knot holding --because it’s only holding the sheath
of more frictive fibre–, weakens the knot, eventually
–one just can’t see it! (OTOH, I have read of anglers
just putting simple sheaths on their “gel-spun” HMPE
lines and reaping benefits of strength !?)

–dl*

44

Well, why aren’t members doing this? There is no need to be scornful of this site. It is what the general public are accessing nowadays as a primary resource if they want to tie knots. Don’t be restricted by not wanting to contribute to a commercial site. The reality nowadays is that no one is going to set up and manage a website like this just as a community service.

I have never seen load testing equipment, but all you need is a load cell, something to attach the loop through if testing bends or to be wrapped around if testing hitches and some means of tightening (eg a winch secured down). Just keep increasing the tension until the line slips or knot breaks and the load cell will record the max force exerted. It is not very complicated, just unfortunately something I cannot do while on the water (seven years full away from land now).

Evans set his up. I will look up and see if he described it on the Cruisers Forum.

I didn’t mean to step on any toes. I would have thought anyone with a passion for knots would love the challenge of doing this and it would not be classed as “work”. If I were land based I would happily potter away hours on this. I have now read Evans’ load test results pdf that a member provided the link to. Such interesting results, dispelling lots of myths. See Dan Lehman’s comments on this - one was “absolutely incredible”.

I can’t believe no one here is interested in the strength of knots. Xarax said it was a ‘black box’ mystery. This is the ‘practical’ not the ‘decorative’ section of the forum isn’t it? Why are knots used mainly if not for some kind of security? Speed of tying may be an issue, ability to untie may also be, whether or knot can be tied one handed is also important, but surely security is way up on top of the list?

Strength of a knot seems to be assessed here on how the knot looks. This is sometimes misleading, and often highly so.** I think load test results are vital when creating new practical knots. Discover new knots, test them out (repeated results, multiple materials, multiple diameters) and get the best ones into use. Strive for improvement. It is not just people engaging in recreational activities who would benefit, think of how much this may help rescue operations etc.

**One reason for this is that some newer materials (that may be stronger and lighter) have lower melting points. Burying a section of the knot too much can mean heat is not dissipated as the knot tightens rapidly under load and it will snap at this point.
So many other aspects as well. Yes, I too look at a knot and have a gut feeling of “that just looks right”, but this can be very misleading.

45

LOL. Sorry, I missed out a word in my haste. “Polyester” was supposed to be written after ‘braid’. That is the standard line used for sheets on most recreational boats nowadays.

My attempt at humour was lost :frowning:
Will put a smiley in next time.

I think you are right regarding the twin turn in the standing part making it stronger than the tail being secured an additional time. But stronger by how much? Are we talking less than 5%? Or 10? Or 20? And how much does this vary between materials? Is it the same for nylon as double braided polyester? Is it the same when the line is wet?

The two knots require very different method of tightening and time taken. A water bowline is very fiddly to tighten up. A Yosemite is super quick. I really want to know if going to the trouble of tying a water bowline is worth the effort. I would do it for a 20% improvement, I would certainly not for 5%. Can anyone here answer that? Speed is often of the essence.

46

I guess you mean the time required to tie and/or to untie a knot. Of course it is - among many other things ! :slight_smile:

It may be related to the “simplicity” of the knot, if, into this already very vague / ill-defined word, we include characteristics not only of the final form, but also of the tying procedure that leads to it. A complex, in form, knot, may be simple regarding tying ( and vice versa, although this happens rather rarely : the 2-stand Mathew Walker bend, for example, is very simple, in form, but it requires careful dressing, that is, it can not be tied as easily and quickly as less simple knots ).
The problem is that, even if we suppose that anybody will agree to anybody else, about what is a “simple” and what is a “complex” form, when it comes to a particular tying procedure, we can be sure that the situation will be reversed ! A tying method which will appear rather simple and easy to some people, will look very complicated and hard to some others - because their ability to form mental pictures of objects, and their hand-eye coordination, varies a lot.
“Speed” sounds like such an easy word, we all understand what it means immediately - but when we realize that “speed” is directly related to “time”, about which know no-thing ( and, perhaps, we can not know any-thing… ), we go back to the square one. Should the time required to understand how a knot works, be included in the evaluation of the degree of the “simplicity” of it ? If we calculate the number of hours we spend on thinking, reading, writing and talking to each other about knots, we will conclude that, even if we had been tying the most complex and difficult to tie and untie knots all this time, we would nt had wasted so much time… So, if we take into account that the time we have to live is limited, any knot, however simple, easy and quick to tie, is infinitely more complex than two-three half hitches, and nothing else - whatever this “else” means.
In the ocean of time, “Speed” should be taken with a bit of salt.
The essence is not speed, it is time - and, regarding the kingdom of time "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here ".

47

The Zeppelin Bend (including a double version, etc.) has excellent security for a jam-resistant bend. I guess it depends on how much rope you want to throw at the problem if you want the most secure bend. If you’re OK with jamming knots, the whole world of fishing knots opens up to you, but the double/triple/etc. fisherman’s knot is commonly used in rope where untying doesn’t matter, although it’s amazing how often people change their mind about not wanting to untie their rope once they find that things are a tad too short or long. ;D

Does what you select work equally well for all diameters? Does this work in both double braid and nylon (doubt it would work in unsheathed Dyneema)? Can nylon and double braid be combined?
You have to use some judgement on differences in diameter. Once it becomes hard to draw things up neatly, you may have to think about switching over to [url=http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html]hitching solutions[/url]. Material construction differences seldom poses a big challenge. If you're intent on knotting some of the slicker Dyneema, you may have to resort to a quadruple fisherman's knot or the like.
By the way, I just love using a Yosemite finish on a bowline. It would be great to know if the water bowline is better or worse and for what types of lines and diameters. Do you know which is the better of the two? Why did you select the water bowline and not an ordinary bowline with a Yosemite finish?
The [url=http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html]Water Bowline[/url] is more secure and stable, which is why I feature it. On the off chance you need something more, you might look at the Monsoon Bowline variant:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/monsoonbowline.html

48

Roo, thanks for all the info.

I didn’t think the fishermans could be used if line was significantly different in diameter, as part of the strength depends on the double/triple overhands butting up well against each other.

Judgement seems to be all we have at the moment, rather than solid information.

What do you personally use if you are pushed for time and need to use a simple bend to join double braided polyester and the diameter of the thinner line is, say, 1/4 or ⅓ or 1/2 or ⅔ or 3/4 of the thicker?

If you have more time and can tie a Zeppelin or double Z, what diameter differences is it effective for? Will it still work for 1/4 or ⅓ ?

These are the burning questions :).

Not familiar with this one. Will have a play with it. Thanks for the link (easier than trying to follow written instructions :slight_smile: :)).