Lee: a single nip (a la a Bowline) + extra Half Hitch with ear.
knot4u: two nips (a la a Clove Hitch) + extra Half Hitch with ear.
Using Lee’s combo, I experienced the nip collapsing despite the extra Half Hitched ear with my boot laces.
Using “your” combo, I could not get either of the nips to collapse. This is truly a robust combination.
However…
I just rewatched your video (you remind me of the Man in Black from A Princess Bride ;)). This may be a lexicon thing as I don’t own ABOK to know what #173 is. I saw you tie the same combo as Lee, that is, you formed only one nip prior to the half hitch with the ear. Interestingly, you tied your half hitched ear in the opposite direction that I had been. Trying that, I still get the nip to collapse (with boot laces mind you–and, nevertheless, the TH still worked). My conclusion is that two nips, cinched together a la a Clove Hitch (and favored by TMCD–not separated like a Sheepshank), plus a Half Hitch with the ear for security, is my “Favorite Way to Tie.” (Note: no corkscrew twisting at any point.)
Update: I bought a short length of thin rope (~3/16" diameter) in the climbing section of the local Erehwon. I tied Lee’s Trucker’s Hitch (one Bowline nip + Half Hitched bight). I could not get the nip to collapse with this “real” rope. Lee is the man!
knot4u, would you be so kind to consider my previous question about avoiding tension loss by cinching the pulley loop around the running part prior to hauling?
Andy, I took a look at your “Most Useful Knots” page. I liked it. You may not have used a graphic artist to do your pictures but the black arrows are very readable and understandable to me and I like your selection of knots.
With respect to your “Quickie Truckie”…
I recognize the passion regarding the whole corkscrew twisting business. The title of this thread requests people’s “favorite” way to tie a TH. Everyone has their own favorite. You like a corkscrew turn. You have real world experience. I know it works because it works for you. I’m writing now because I noticed you put forth Lee’s Trucker’s Hitch YouTube video as an example of your corkscrew method. I know there was a debate as to whether Lee actually did a corkscrew turn and you implored others to take a closer look at his video to verify that he did. I contend he didn’t. Would you take another look and see if Lee doesn’t wind up with, what I’ve been calling, a single Bowlinelike nip around the bight that is drawn from behind it? I’d like to suggest that the following video shows a more accurate depiction of what you demonstrate on your website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmwURT5apfs. Clearly this young fellow corroborates what you’ve been saying, that a corkscrew turn is a most feasible method to tie a TH.
If there’s anyway someone could get in touch with Lee Bundy and have him do another Trucker’s Hitch on you tube it would solve this debate. Lee would need to tie it slowly and explain the various steps as he went, this would be a great educational video not only for us knotheads but for the general public as well.
We’ve got to much uncertainty on what Lee does with the midline loop part, for the record, I don’t see him double twisting or corkscrewing at all. It appears like Lee’s simply taking the bunny ear and making a half hitch, nothing more, nothing less…and this method is very reliable, secure and strong.
Can anyone get Lee to make an instructional like video of his method? I’m thinking about making a you tube video with my method, ABOK 173. The great thing about using ABOK 173 is that if you desire, you can simply add a third hitch, essentially creating a clove hitch and a half, making it ultra secure and beefing it up.
Well it was easy enough using Google to get his contact information. Based on his Trucker’s Hitch alone, I have a good mind to patronize his guide business here: http://lcpackers.com/about/
As far as asking him to make another video, it is not necessary. Except for his preference for the far anchor hitch, for which I’m curious, from his narration, the camera lady’s narration, and his demonstration in the video, everything else is very clear to me, and apparently to you too (and knot4u as well). What I will do, is write the man here http://trailblazersonline.com/?page_id=3, and invite him to join us on the forum.
Hi Knot4U,
Hope the week is starting well for you, thanks for your message.
why didn't you provide the link to your site?
I’m not too happy with many of my old pictures, and I’ve been meaning to take more with different grades of rope.
One symptom that the pictures may be inadequate is what you say in see in them. On the one at the top right of the truckie series, there is what I call “twist twice” (the loop to the left of that picture, through which the black arrow is going). I could have twisted only once, and you could still make a truckie. (I have been assuming that this is what you have been talking about, as this works.)
For me it does hold—picture must be foggy. That’s the same kind of nip as on a bowline (until you tighten).
Heading out to the garden but will try to post pictures of both at some stage.
All the best,
Andy
I’m glad this thread perseveres. It has afforded me the opportunity to really study the technique of others.
Now I see why in your video you tied your securing half-hitched bight in the direction you did, that is, opposite that of Lee–because you also tied the Bowline-like nip in the opposite direction, like Andy! According to your quote above, you form your nip “exactly” the same way as depicted in Andy’s picture. Clearly (now!) in Andy’s pic, the nip is formed by rotating counterclockwise, that is, by twisting the standing part with your right hand toward yourself, which is counterclockwise as one would observe from the right side. Lee twists away from himself–clockwise as one would observe from the right side.
However Knot4u, you do NOT tie your securing half-hitched bight in the same direction as Andy shows in his pic. If you did, you would not get the topologically-identical-to-a-clove-hitch formation that you mentioned several times.
Andy, I RETRACT the alternative video I suggested in my prior post. Your TH is almost identical to Lee’s. The nip is mirrored but the securing half-hitched bight is in the same direction. Unlike Lee, this does not result in a “Clove Hitch” formation with the secured bight. ETA: When I test each direction of the half-hitched bight, they both seem to work.
This “double twisting” description was quite the red herring, unfortunately. Why don’t we just use geometry? Andy, you’ve claimed vehemently that Lee twists twice, and I believe I know why. I speculated early on but now I’ll use angles. Lee takes the standing part with his right hand and twists 180 degrees away from himself (clockwise as one would observe from the right). This creates what I have been calling a single bowline-like nip. Then he twists another 90 degrees in order to insert the bight from below the now horizontal nip. He could have forgone this “second” twist by inserting the bight from behind the vertical nip he formed with the “first” twist. Knot4u, you said this twisting business is a moot point once the securing half hitch is formed. I say the double twisting nonsense is moot if the nip is formed the way this fellow forms it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjIi46dZ08M. As I alluded to previously, I’ll never tie a Bowline by preforming the nip again. “The rabbit comes out of the hole…” “What hole?!?” SILLY!.
Knot4u, I just watched your video A-GAIN! As I see it, you do NOT tie your nip the same as Andy. You tie it the same as Lee. You tie your securing bight in the opposite direction as Lee (whereas Andy ties the nip in the opposite direction and the bight in the same direction). I do not agree with your assertion that, with the direction you go around with the bight in your video, you wind up with a topologically identical formation to a Clove Hitch. But yes, since you and Andy each tie one element of the nip/securing half hitch opposite to that of Lee, you both do tie essentially the same combination.
Agreed. Your nip (in the video) is in the same direction as Lee. Your bight is in the opposite direction as Lee.
My method of tie is like the video you posted of the guy in the snow
Let’s give that a well deserved name, shall we: “Perry’s Trucker’s Hitch.” If we could just get Perry to show Lee how to form the nip and Lee to show Perry the securing bight, perhaps we could solve world peace!
Lee takes the standing part with his right hand and twists 180 degrees away from himself (clockwise as one would observe from the right).
Yes, that’s what I do too (and I have been saying clockwise repeatedly, and I think the picture I posted at this stage of the discussion also show that).
I see that the pictures on my site (which I did not reference in this twisting convo) twist in the opposite direction, and I think I know what happened here. It’s pretty hard to take pictures of knots while tying them and keeping them in place, and I must have made the twist with my left hand for the pictures on the website, instead of the right hand that I always use.
Like Knot4U I object to arbitrarily naming that double twist configuration after some random guy on YouTube, this was shown to me ages ago in Australia as the standard way of tying truckies and I don’t see how the name would go to some random guy among the thousands who use it.
The reason I call it "twist once" is because as shown in Andy's "Quickie Truckie", that's the least amount of twisting you could do to get the Trucker to work.
Here are the pictures promised earlier.
The first one is what I call “single twist”, which is what I’ve been assuming you do, and what this discussion has convinced me to experiment with over the past month.
The second is what I call “double twist”, and what I have done in the past, and originally written to ask about. Also what I see Lee doing in the video.
Both the single and double allow the truckie to work, even without securing the ear with a half-hitch (as I nearly always do, and you guys seem to as well). My question since the beginning has been: which is preferable, single or double?
These pictures are for clarification only. I don’t know how the holding of the single and double twists relate to the picture on my website you recently referred to—that is irrelevant, because as I mentioned before I always twist clockwise, except, it seems, for that website photo, when my right hand must have been holding a camera or something else while I was twisting in the “wrong direction” with the left. (I gave the single counter-clockwise a quick try and it did hold, but every rope is different.)
EDIT: Oh, and sorry about the disgustingly beautiful weather, it’s Summer here in the southern hemisphere. 8)
~Sigh~ If it were for someone else, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy ABOK. I just can’t get myself to spend that kind of money on myself. It’s been a while since I’ve paged though it in a book store. It seemed good as an encyclopedia. From what I remember, the illustrations were a bit dated compared to knot books of today.
Andy, with reference to the three very clear pictures of ABOK #173 that you referenced above which you note “have nothing to do with the double twist,” I fully agree with you that Lee does NOT tie ABOK #173. Nevertheless, do you now agree that Lee doesn’t do a double twist either? Since I don’t own ABOK, given Knot4u’s definition of ABOK #172 being a single nip, Lee ties ABOK #172 + the securing half hitch with the bight. Lee’s video is a perfect example of what you have on your website for a “Truckie Hitch” except that your pictures have the left hand turn. That one picture is very deceiving because it certainly looks like a corkscrew turn was performed.
I understand “ABOK #173” now. The Asian fellow and the Australian fellow on the porch tie it, but they don’t cinch the two nips together to resemble a Clove Hitch. With two nips, do you find it necessary to additionally tie the securing half hitched bight? I see the extra security with that but I’ve found that Lee’s combo is sufficient.
That Australina fellow ties his nips with counterclockwise turns as well. Andy, are you sure that that just isn’t an Australian idiosyncracy, kinda like your toilets going down the wrong way?
