Poll on Round Turn description

General Discussion
1

Given that if a line continues in it’s same, straight direction is Zer0 degrees deviation, and when same line takes a giant U and returns on same pairallell path as 180deg. deviation-

How many degrees before we call it a Round Turn?

270 - Get past a Turn and your legal

360 - A full circle around host and contiuing in original direction

450 - Same plus some more will be where we start to describe a Round Turn

540 - A full circle around and headed back in same direction a Single / Simple Turn would be heading

Is your answer one of visual or mechanical logic?

2

This points out one of the knotting-nomenclature problems/issues.
Considering the oft’-given “Round Turn & 2 Half-hitches”, the
answer seems to be 540 (= 180+360); given the “Round Turn
Bowline” it is 360 (= 360–an additional full turn).

Likely a way out is to have a term “-turn” put to use:
e.g., “take a 540deg. turn” !? One can consider that part of
the actual turning of line in a knot is implied by the next
point it must go–i.e., that the term “turn”/“round turn” gets
the rope only part way around, but then the requirement
to tie to the SPart, say, implies a further turning (which
shouldn’t however be seen as part of the “turn” term).

I vote for the Arctic Tern, which might need help if it keeps
being 85deg (70+deg here, DC) in January!

–dl*

3

i think 360 gives greatest increase in force (moving in 90degree incremeants). The completiion of the turn to make it push back into itself on opposite side giving not just friction from the footprint of contact; but then also increasing the friction of said footprint by this choking collar in forms where both ends are pulled actively or just 1 actively and one passivley/ siezed so only responding to the other pull.

But, then i further like adding next incremeant of 90 to hit 450; to further define a Crossed Turn as RT; crossed on self; Hitch as same pulled in opposite direction(whereby Crossed Turn has greater force Standing under lessor force Bitters, and Hitch is same form but reversed force flow thru rope device to place a pinch of the greater Standing bearing down on the lesser Bitters). Whereby, a Hitch is kinda an Underhand Loop on host/mount; and a Crossed Turn is an Overhand Loop on host/mount. In Equal and Opposites view; a Hitch/Underhand Loop is a CrossedTurn/Overhand Loop to it’s Equal and Opposite pull(like in Bends etc.)

Am looking at doing a glossary page; of my version , of splitting these hairs and defining these components; that are seperate modules of mechainics to be grouped together in different knot forms; but to carry the principals of their module’s mechanics; as the force traces from 1 module to the next in the lacing.

In the Distel example from climbing i see your definition of a Coil as 1 mechanic; then the preceding (to the loading) Half Hitch as a seperate mechanic. All Coil modules imparting similair mechanics to the knots that contain them and all Halfs same for their charachteristics. This could define the knot lacing and the knot mechanics etc. in this module view for understanding tying, inspecting and understanding mechanics of use and choice for use etc.

But; the 540 would seem the most popular definition; but from a visual and not mechanical point of ‘view’? Anyway, jsut the name of this place implies this is the place and peoples to ask!

4

As a decorative knottyer I do not really have an opinion about the round turn problem, but as someone writing instructions it is needed to have a good picture to refer to.
So when I find one in the books or on the web I look and see what others call the things.
Here is a link to one of those pictures: Front Page - 66th and London

As far as I can see they call the 360o or 450o and on in the same direction a turn, and the 540o round turn.

If my memory works this is about the most common way to describe them.

Willeke

5

Such confusion on my part and others is the reason i ask.
Wikipedia

As far as i know a Turn is just a U shape/ bight on a mount. A lot of foks i think take what i call 540 as a RT, but at 360, we start to get rope pushing back into self to form an increase in friction just not from the friction area and textures etc., but from some mechanichs of the choke ring itself i think; for more than the usual incremeant of friction increase that we may see from an increase of each 10 degrees or whatever. If i understood roight, both you and Gordon had question about a straight line being Zer0 degrees. i’m trying in my own fumbling way to categorize etc.; to have a comon language for making/ drawing etc. And, in geometry i guess they say a line is 180 degrees as an angle. It would be best to go with what everyone understood as common base. But, here i will wish to name things in forms that will carry over from visual to mechanical expressions consistently.

i wish to break the knots down into componenets to identify, tie and understand workings, uses etc.; but all from same model/ shorthand of modular components/ commonali-ties.

In diagram below; 1st part, if both A and B are pulled; there is not 360 degrees of pressure on the mount, but rather 180. At 12 oclock position, there is no pressure on mount; with most pressure at 6 o’clock, equally and oppositely from initiating pulls. At 3 and 9 there is less pressure into mount, and more directional force around mount. 5 & 7 o’clock have about as much pressure as each other, a little less than the maximum at 6.

In the 2nd part of the diagram, A is pulled alone, and B must be tucked to secure. You coauld either take B and continue around CCW and tuck in region 6 or go CCW to A and BackHand Hitch around and then contiune around CW to tuck in region 6. Region 6/ 6o’clock having the most pinching direction and pressure into mount. But, we also have rotational forces. So, i’d tuck at 5 in convex. At 6 tucked we would be in most pressure, but due to any rotation, could be pulled to 7 etc. From 6, 7 is A)downhill and B) moving to less pressure; both reliefs that the forces will seek.

Region 5 is same pressure, almost maximum pressure; but any rotation element would have to work the Bitters from 5 to 6. From 5; 6 is A) uphill and B) more pressure. i figure 5 is more secure, because these are not reliefs, but increases; and the forces will look to decrease/ find path of least resistance, not more resis-stance.

These are just some of the things that keep me awake at night sometimes; trying to understand and see how to break down these things into components; that can be rebuilt in diffeent ways and have the attributes of their elemeants; as any other branch of study.

http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/knots/Clock%20Works.jpg

6

Ashley describes a turn as 360 and 540 as a round turn (40 & 41). This is what I’ve always thought (since my scouting days and learning the round turn and two half hitches); however, maybe it can be argued that the round turn starts from 361 degrees and finishes at 540, after which a second round turn commences.

Darren

7

Maybe they should have said “turn”. Anyway, the above statement is circular logic (no pun intended). It is 360 because they’re talking about 360? Hmmm.

Let’s not re-invent the dictionary:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/turn

TURN (as opposed to round turn)

a passing or twisting of one thing around another, as of a rope around a mast.

a single circular or convoluted shape, as of a coiled or wound rope.

8

I guess you missed it the first time around: Maybe they should have said “add three turns” to indicate adding 3 circles of rope.

A round turn is the name of a structure of rope, it is not a unit of measurement such that adding a round turn and a round turn equals two round turns (it doesn’t). Adding the curvature from two bowlines does not give you a double bowline, either.

9

In some contexts, it doesn’t, but in the context of rope work, it does, as shown in the dictionary description of “turn” regarding rope and in the Ashley Book of Knots.

Think of a “turn” as a regular 360 degree encirclement and a “round turn” as a turn with an extra 180 degrees to make it a round-trip turn of 540 degrees.

10

How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?

11

And what is it when it isn’t indicated? If someone asked you to place a turn of rope around a mast, how many degrees would you go?

12

I answered your question twice, no, three times. Would you like to answer my question?

13

If you’re not sure how many degrees are in a turn, how can you be sure of the number of degrees in a round turn?

Is the Ashley Book of Knots wrong? Are internet images wrong?

14

I would correct them, and say, “I think you mean you want me to add three turns”. But I’d have to be in a bad mood.

15

On the wikipedia site > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot got towards the middle and on the right side is a picture with descriptions.

And this >
* A turn or single turn is a single pass behind or through an object.
* A round turn is the complete encirclement of an object; requires two passes.
* Two round turns circles the object twice; requires three passes.

I hope this helps.

SS

16

I assure you that no pissiness was intended. It was a sincere inquiry.

17

I think you’re missing the point. Just because people don’t count in increments of 540 degrees does not mean that there isn’t a coiled structure of 540 degrees called a Round Turn.

18

Yes.

The confusion is people thinking the 180 degrees is part of the Round Turn. No!

Actually, yes. It’s not an either-or scenario. It’s both. There are 180 degrees in part of the Buntline Hitch (approximately) and there are 180 degrees in part of the Round Turn.

A Round Turn Structure can exist concurrently with a Buntline Hitch or it can exist all alone.

A Round Turn and Two Half Hitches is named such because people can see each component existing concurrently.

19

This is one of the reasons why I thought it important to have a unique language that describes things accurately and without question. We could describe a Round Turn as being X many wraps or we could say that the WE of the line is continued from its starting point in approaching the RT + 2HH from the SP by moving through 540 degrees parallel to the SP through the point of attachment and is then cast…etc. As for the Buntline Hitch, the WE of the line moves from the SP through 180 degrees parallel to the SP and is then formed into a Clove Hitch around the SP by casting…etc.

I vote for just naming the number of degrees that are intended to be turned from the SP and doing away with such answers as have roused the hackles of all who are responding with such fervor! No poll needed (other than to point out the folly of taking polls on an empty stomach!). ;D

SR

20

How many times 0 will get you more than that?

Wow, you must be trying to answer the question here
–2 pages of … nothing.

You cast a question that nOne has ever asked --or can you cite some
literature in which your repeated “add 3 round turns” is actually
given?! Because except for you, HERE, I don’t think anyone has
spoken like that; were what-you-think-is-asked-for actually wanted,
they’d say “add 3 turns” or maybe (which you’d prefer) “3 wraps”.
Think about it: where in knotting are there cases with lots of turns
such that someone MIGHT just utter your strawman? --ANGLING,
right. And do you EVER see those knot-tying instructions saying
to “make 4-7 round turns” ? (no) What they say is to make
“turns” or “wraps” --an equating that you deny, but there it is.

So, in fact, the “round turn & …” sure has seemed to denote
540 degrees (roughly, ignoring the extra 90deg that might seem
implied to reach across the circle to the SPart’s tangent line).

" It’s just math, and frankly is not difficult math."

No, it’s not; it’s language usage, and the investigation needs to
lay that out and see what sense can be found, and figure it it’s
consistent & solid enough to build upon, or is some redress is
wanted.

–dl*