Poll on Round Turn description

[knot4u]

@roo post:10

@knot4u post:40

I disagree.

How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?

Whatever is indicated…

2 degrees turn
90 degrees turn
180 degrees turn
270 degrees turn

Now, if you asked me “How many degrees are in a wrap of rope in your opinion?”, then my answer would be 360 degrees.

Saying “turn” to mean 360 degrees is just lazy communication. For comparison, people usually say “strength” when they actually mean “security”.

[knot4u]

@roo post:11

@knot4u post:41

@roo post:10

@knot4u post:40

I disagree.

How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?

Whatever is indicated…

And what is it when it isn’t indicated? If someone asked you to place a turn of rope around a mast, how many degrees would you go?

Back to the original question, how many degrees is a Round Turn?

For about the fifth time, if someone says “add 3 Round Turns”, then the correct response is to add 3 x 360 degrees of turn. There is no mind trick, philosophical debate or new definition needed. There is no situation where Round Turn means 540 degrees. Again, in the knot “Round Turn and Two Half Hitches”, the initial 180 degrees is implied, and the Round Turn is still 360 degrees.

[knot4u]

@roo post:11

@knot4u post:41

@roo post:10

@knot4u post:40

I disagree.

How many degrees are in a turn of rope in your opinion?

Whatever is indicated…

And what is it when it isn’t indicated? If someone asked you to place a turn of rope around a mast, how many degrees would you go?

I might add 360 degrees, but adding 270 degrees could also be correct depending on the application. In contrast, adding a Round Turn specifically means adding 360 degrees of turn, and that’s the question at hand. I won’t look down on you if you change your vote. ;D

[knot4u]

By the way, no, you did not answer my question, if someone says add 3 Round Turns, how many degrees of turn are you going to add?

[knot4u]

@roo post:13

@knot4u post:43

I might add 360 degrees, but adding 270 degrees could also be correct depending on the application. In contrast, adding a Round Turn specifically means adding 360 degrees of turn, and that’s the question at hand. I won’t look down on you if you change your vote. ;D

If you’re not sure how many degrees are in a turn, how can you be sure of the number of degrees in a round turn?

Is the Ashley Book of Knots wrong? Are internet images wrong?

Hey, there’s no need to get pissy. It’s just math, and frankly is not difficult math.

[knot4u]

@roo post:14

@knot4u post:44

By the way, no, you did not answer my question, if someone says add 3 Round Turns, how many degrees of turn are you going to add?

I would correct them, and say, “I think you mean you want me to add three turns”. But I’d have to be in a bad mood.

Wow, seriously? OK, let’s try this another way.

How many degrees of turn does 3 Round Turns have?

[knot4u]

Here’s another example.

Consider I tied a Buntline Hitch. Now, consider I tied a Buntline Hitch with a Round Turn. How many degrees of turn did I add with that Round Turn? I’m asking for a number, not a link to Dictionary.com.

Here’s my answer: I added 360 degrees of turn when I added the Round Turn. The Buntline Hitch already has a 180 degree turn around the object. The confusion is people thinking the 180 degrees is part of the Round Turn. No! The 180 degrees is already there before the Round Turn is added.

[knot4u]

@roo post:17

@knot4u post:46

How many degrees of turn does 3 Round Turns have?

I think you’re missing the point. Just because people don’t count in increments of 540 degrees does not mean that there isn’t a coiled structure of 540 degrees called a Round Turn.

There is none. The 180 degrees of initial turn is already there in just about every hitch. I keep saying this. If you add a Round Turn, you’re adding 360 degrees to the 180 degrees that’s already there in the hitch, but the 180 degrees is not part of the Round Turn.

[knot4u]

@Dan_Lehman post:20

@knot4u post:42

Back to the original question, how many degrees is a Round Turn?

For about the fifth time, if someone says “add 3 Round Turns”, then the correct response is to add 3 x 360 degrees of turn. There is no mind trick, philosophical debate or new definition needed. There is no situation where Round Turn means 540 degrees. Again, in the knot “Round Turn and Two Half Hitches”, the initial 180 degrees is implied, and the Round Turn is still 360 degrees.

How many times 0 will get you more than that?

Wow, you must be trying to answer the question here
–2 pages of … nothing.

You cast a question that nOne has ever asked --or can you cite some
literature in which your repeated “add 3 round turns” is actually
given?! Because except for you, HERE, I don’t think anyone has
spoken like that

Fail. YOU have spoken like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1150.msg7863#msg7863

@Dan_Lehman

4. timber hitch
   For improved security, strength (my surmise), and staying in place, make a round turn (or 2)
   of end around the S.Part before dogging the end back around itself–kind of a friction-hitch working.

You’re talking about adding 2 x 360 degrees of turn, not 2 x 540 degrees.

Here’s another experienced knot tier (Inkanyezi) who speaks like that:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1379.msg9736#msg9736

@Inkanyezi

…I added a round turn under the half hitch…

He’s talking about adding 360 degrees of turn, not 540 degrees.

[knot4u]

@roo post:22

@Korgan

lol. I can’t believe this has gone on for so long. But he is right. A round turn is 360?. To say that no one has ever said to make three round turns in a knot is missing the point.

What he’s saying is that if you agree that taking 3 round turns gives you 3 x 360?, then you’re saying that taking 1 round turn is 360?. Saying a round turn is 540? is ridiculous, since taking 3 round turns does not give you 3 x 540?. That would give you 4.5 round turns. I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand. The 180? that’s being included in the addition is not part of the round turn: it’s the consequence of moving to the next step of the knot and is, as knot4u has said, implied.

When people talk of adding circles, they would properly say add “turns”. Lazy speech doesn’t negate what a round turn is.

I’ll ask you, too: How many degrees are there in a turn? Knot4u isn’t sure.

It comes down to this: The Ashley Book of Knots and other ropework references define a round turn differently than you and knot4u. Now, do I believe the the ropework references, or do I believe two self-admitted knot neophytes?

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1960.msg13655#msg13655
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2093.msg15002#msg15002

I guess it takes a new person (who also has over 15 years engineering experience) to expose Ashley’s non-workable definition. What we have here is a fine example of group think. It’s otherwise smart people ignoring plain truths just so that they don’t venture outside the group. Not comparing myself to Einstein, but note that Einstein exposed fallacies of hundred of years of Newtonian physics in order to formulate his theories of Relativity.

[knot4u]

ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that includes about 360 degrees.
ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include about 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.
ABOK #37 shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.
ABOK #40 shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.

I guess the “experts” here need to study ABOK a little bit more, or maybe don’t refer to Ashley anymore.

[knot4u]

@roo post:23

@knot4u post:51

ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that is 360 degrees.

ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

ABOK #37, Ashley shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.

ABOK #40, Ashley shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.

I guess the “experts” here need to study ABOK a little bit more.

The problem with your interpretation here is that Ashley is talking in about the tangling of anchor lines due to drift of the vessel. The context of terminology is different. If you look a few inches down the page, you’ll see the turn and round turn structures that are being discussed here regarding wraps around a spar.

Again, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

You’re running out of ways a round this, pun intented…

I also notice you ignored Ashley’s description of a “single turn”.

[knot4u]

@roo post:24

@knot4u post:52

Again, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include 2 x 360 degrees with 180 degrees that are implied.

You’re running out of ways a round this, pun intented…

I also notice you ignored Ashley’s description of a “single turn”.

The turn makes a complete trip around the spar, as is consistent with the dictionary definition given earlier. I think you don’t like the way Ashley has drawn his diagram. If you think the description is ambiguous, you are free to use the dictionary definition of a turn being 360 degrees.

I agree that the Two Round Turn structure is 900 degrees. See:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.msg16509#msg16509

LOL, that’s super confusing. Let’s all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo’s world. In order for that to make sense, I have to ignore your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees.

[knot4u]

@roo post:25

@knot4u post:53

. What happened to your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees?

Nothing happened to it. A round turn is not two round turns, nor is two round turns double the degrees of a round turn. Please explain your confusion.

My confusion that what you’re saying is not consistent with the ABOK references I posted. I can’t tell somebody a Round Turn equals 540 degrees and then expect to make sense out of the ABOK references I posted. That’s because a Round Turn is not 540 degrees.

[knot4u]

@roo post:29

…but the evidence is all piling up on the side of a turn being 360 and a round turn being 540. It’s nothing personal. It’s just a matter of language usage…

??? Evidence is piling up?

According to what I’ve seen, there is only one diagram that is causing this confusion that a Round Turn is 540 degrees (it’s not). The diagram is ABOK #41 (or any diagram mimicking that). In that diagram, the Round Turn is actually 360 degrees, and there is an implied 180 degrees turn.

In every other instance of a Round Turn, it clearly makes no sense to define a Round Turn as 540 degrees. As just a few examples, the definition of 540 degrees clearly breaks down for the following:

-Two Round Turns (ABOK #42)
-Three Round Turns, and so on
-ABOK #36
-ABOK #37