Stopper knot topologies and equivalent eyeknots

[Dennis_Pence]

It is time in this discussion thread to move on to a different stopper knot. Here we begin to look for eye knots related to what is now called Ashley’s Stopper Knot [#526]. Ashley suggested in [#518, 531] that you might tie a stopper knot in the bight just to get a larger stopper knot. But he also noted that it is the same construction as a loop knot (or eye knot). First, here is the whole knot tied in the bight. Notice that it resembles a fully Doubled Ashley’s Stopper Knot [#553], and the three rim parts are doubled when used as a stopper knot. The noose part is also doubled.

But you do not need to run the bight all the way back. Inspired by Ashley’s partially Doubled Ashley’s Stopper Knot [#552], the part of the noose that pulls in the free end does not need to be doubled. This also gives a larger stopper knot where the three rims are doubled.

While the above might give a better large stopper knot with the free end away from the standing part, I did not like the fact that the free end comes out so near the loop if I wanted to use it as an eye knot. Thus, I removed one more tuck of the bight to get an eye knot that I liked better. Notice now one of the rim parts is not doubled, so this does not work as well as a stopper knot.

[Dennis_Pence]

It was pointed out above that we are getting eye knots where the nipping structure is a stopper knot. Usually, we like eye knots where the nipping structure is simpler. The last eye knot above has nipping structure which is an Ashley’s Stopper Knot while the part with the free end is simpler. In an earlier discussion in this thread, it was shown how to get other eye knots from a given structure.

The relationship between ‘bends’ and eye knots - Knotting Concepts & Explorations - IGKT Forum

If we look at the structure of this last eye knot (where we have shaded the free end part and labelled it B, while the standing part is unshaded and labelled A), we see the four ways to get an eye knot from this structure.

Now for each of these four loops, if we make rope A (unshaded) the standing part, the nipping structure will be the Ashley’s Stopper Knot (including our original). So, we skip these and move on to where rope B (shaded) is made the standing part. Notice that now the nipping structure is a simple loop (or crossing turn). Looking at what we need to do with the free end (unshaded), in 1 and 3, we have to tie the Ashley’s Stopper Knot backwards. Thus, we concentrate on 2 and 4.

{We have rotated the structure 90 deg and taken the mirror image.} Notice that loop 2 actually gives an eye knot in the bowline family. The noose part of the Ashley’s Stopper Knot gives the collar (which goes around the standing part in the direction of a Cowboy Bowline).

Notice that loop 4 actually gives an eye knot which is in the anti-bowline family. I am not sure how practical any of these eye knots related to Ashley’s Stopper Knot are, but it is a fun knot exploration.

[Dennis_Pence]

The flat representation for the bowline above with the Ashley’s Stopper end leaves some choices for tightening. Here is one way.

Just as with Ashley’s Stopper, it is best here to tighten the Overhand Knot that has now been tied before finishing the knot.

A variation would be to skip the last tuck, giving a Cowboy Bowline ending in an Overhand Noose.

You can also end a regular Bowline with an Overhand Noose.

If you insist on a final tuck, it does not work very well to try to complete an Ashley’s Stopper by tucking the free end into the collar. Instead, try an Alston tuck { see [#1015]}.

[kost_greg]

Nice work Dennis_Pence with all the Ashley stopper configurations.

Although #526 is clearly a 1010 bowline with its eye shrinked/collapsed, i did not find any of the deriving topologies as much resistant to jamming as i would like.

Nonetheless, the specific developments presented here are quite interesting, with particular reference to what is shown below

I would certainly prefer it in a more expanded form, free of any overhands, as i had configured it in an inline format with two eyes.

However, in your approach, the secondary eye is shrinked, and the knot is presented as an end termination knot.

[Dennis_Pence]

Here are some more stopper knots which give interesting eye knots.

In a recent post on another thread (post 2)

Tricorn Loop slipped in a 6 mm accessory cord during practical testing - Practical Knots - IGKT Forum

Mark Gommers shows in a diagram a Blimp Knot (which is a stopper related to the Zeppelin Bend) tied with a bight to give an eye knot.

It and other posts have got me thinking about Rigger’s Bend (also called Hunter’s Bend). It is possible to find a stopper knot which is related to Rigger’s Bend (just as the Blimp Knot is related to the Zeppelin Bend). I call it a Rigger’s Stopper.

You have to very carefully tighten the Rigger’s Stopper, keeping the shaded part horizontal to get the same shape as the Rigger’s Bend. While I could do this with the single strand, I found it almost impossible to tighten the eye knot when I tried to tie this in the bight. Much like the Figure Nine can be transformed into the Tweenie, it is easy to transform Rigger’s Stopper into another more stable form. It is interesting that, in this form, the stopper has 3 rim parts.

Transformed, this version of the Rigger’s Stopper resembles [ABoK #545, 546]. This seems to be a Turk’s Head (3B X 2L) tied as a stopper knot (which is even smaller than the two Ashley shows). I think the related eye knot is mostly decorative, and it would probably be very hard to untie after a heavy load.

[agent_smith]

Indeed - I have found that Ashley #582 when tied with a bight to be a very useful fixed eye knot. It is jam resistant - just like it famous cousin the Zeppelin bend.

Budworth coined the name ‘Blimp’ knot - due to its likely relationship to the Zeppelin bend.
I think VR (rescue) teams could find the ‘Blimp eye knot’ to be a useful addition to their toolbox. Its relatively easy to tie and its resistant to jamming ought to make it more popular (but it has not seen use - likely because I haven’t promoted it). Some may find it “difficult” to tie (but this is a subjective concept).

[Dennis_Pence]

Mark,

I agree with you that the Blimp Knot [ABoK #582] tied in a bight makes a nice fixed eye knot. The similar Rigger’s Stopper that I have been looking at does not work as well, partially because it easily moves into so many different forms.

I had not noticed that this Rigger’s Stopper also can be transformed into [ABoK #551]. Even Ashley warns that this is difficult to tighten in a single strand, and it is even more difficult with a bight. When I tie #551 with a bight, I do not get something that looks like your diagram, but I can see how it could transform into that. Here is what I get.

I finally found the variation of Rigger’s Stopper above that I said was more stable and which looks like a Turk’s Head 3B X 2L later in Ashley. It is [ABoK #577] in the chapter on decorative stoppers, and he says it looks like a Matthew Walker Knot.

[agent_smith]

Going back to the original post by kost_greg on 15 Feb…

With respect to the two ‘eye knots’ presented - some interesting possibilities arise for creating ‘offset’ joining knots.

There are 2 possible ‘offset’ joining knot orientations - which I am experimenting with as I type this reply.

EDIT: With all ‘end-to-end joining knots’ there are 4 available ‘linkages’ - from which a total of 8 ‘eye knots’ can be derived. Essentially, there are 4 eye knots, which can be transposed, creating a further subset of 4 eye knots (thereby making a total of 8).

Right now, I have not determined if one orientation is more stable and secure than the other (or if both are equal). Edit note: It appears that both offset orientations are identical.

I cant believe that I missed the significance of these knots presented by kost_greg.

NOTE: I am always keen to find a better ‘mouse trap’ - in this case, the ultimate ‘offset’ joining knot for life critical applications. Offset knots translate more easily around a 90 degree edge (less likely to get ‘stuck’).

There is always a trade-off between the ‘footprint’ of an offset knot, relative to its stability and security… which also has to be balanced against its relative ease of tying. kost_greg may have inadvertently stumbled on to something here… (although I would prefer to name it as a ‘re-tucked offset overhand bend’ - or some other descriptive name).

EDIT: Photo added

As far as I can see, regardless of which pair of available ‘linkages’ are chosen, the geometric outcome is the same - which is interesting. The structure might be resistant to ‘capsizing’ - although this needs to be tested.

[kost_greg]

Indeed, quite interesting developments of the OP knots, in the offset, joining knot field.

I have isolated a couple of segments of your reply, with which i am in full agreement.

@agent_smith

The structure might be resistant to ‘capsizing’ - although this needs to be tested.

and this…

@agent_smith

There is always a trade-off between the ‘footprint’ of an offset knot, relative to its stability and security… which also has to be balanced against its relative ease of tying.

I think, its resistance to capsizing, has to be investigated, and is clearly proportional to the ease of untying,. It would be likely to result in some kind of core deformation, under hard strain, which would probably affect the knot’s releasability.

However, if the knot was to be loaded as an end to end joining knot, in a through loading mode, (both SPs loaded in oposite directions), in a follow through way of construction like the flemish, F8, bend, (nice entry for Ychan, bend archives, if there is not there already ), i believe things would have been better, in terms of stability, security, and ease of untying by extension.

@agent_smith

the ultimate ‘offset’ joining knot for life critical applications.

If there is relative stability throughout the entire loading range, i guess we would accept such an assertion for a specific ,“offset"joining knot.

By the way, i really liked the blimp fixed eyeknot. I speculate that the reason of its non-use, lies in its difficulty to be formed in a follow-through way of construction, as is standard in life critical applications, where knot’s proper dressing might be quite challenging.

Of course, if we would have simplified the knot by removing one blimp component, and replacing it with a nipping loop, we would have imparted some bwl properties to the knot, reducing complexity at the same time.

This configuration is structured like so…

The last two images illustrate the bwl-esque variant, but the knot is EEL, which means that it can also be loaded from the blimp component side.

[agent_smith]

Very nice.

The ‘kost_greg’ bend ?

I think you’ve stumbled on to something remarkable here. It appears that some (or all) of the corresponding ‘eye knots’ could be resistant to jamming. Same with the corresponding ‘offset’ bends.
The parent ‘bend’ is a little tricky to tie - but that’s a subjective opinion. The offset ‘bend’ is (for me) easier to tie (again subjective). The ‘eye knots’ are relatively ‘easy’ to tie (subjective).

I think some load testing should be carried out for all orientations and corresponding eye knots. Is Alan Lee still here?

[Dan_Lehman]

I’ve long liked the “semi-symmetric Fig.9 EK”
–my “semi” though not helping to shape the knot,
as I mean by it that only one of the two strands in
the 2-tangle makes that “sym.F9” with the twin
partner exiting after making an OH.
I.e., in your top image, with left-side’s golden rope
as S.Part, and it’s other end the Outgoing Eye Leg,
the blue Returning Eye Leg (from right side) will exit
when it reaches the top. (As there’s no need/benefit
to further tracing.) There are three main positions for
the REL->Tail, and different dressings to try on.

The nice, both-ropes biding of the S.Part with the
eye legs --the twin-ropes wrap at bottom of top image–
gives good mild friction for slack-security. And loading
will be trying to pull these parts open, so no jamming!
UNLESSSSS, one has material with such low friction
that these twin parts get pulled tighter, closing any
gap and … jamming (YMMV per force & rope).
That’s what I saw in the case I got tested in 5/16"
New England Ropes blue HMPE 12-strand.

In ropes of common uses --non-HMPE stuff–,
it’s a nice EKnot. And it’s also NSE (“TIB”).
Moreover, the base Symmetric Fig.9 can take
the RELeg through it as a hitched-Tail EK,
useful for making small-scope eye-tightening.

–dl*
====*

[agent_smith]

While untying the kost_greg bend, I paused and realised another possibility exists (which reduces to a simple overhand integrated with Ashley #2255 (or an analog of it). I have no name for it other than 2/3 kost_greg as a working title? There are corresponding ‘eye knots’ that can also be derived from this ‘bend’.

[Dan_Lehman]

Which is the tangle/knot I described in my msg.
preceding yours. --various dressings.

(-;