Hi everyone. I teach knots to a large group of children ages 11-18. They have a knot board of 25 knots they have to complete for their knot honor patch. I realize most children won’t remember 25 knots after they complete the board. My question is if you had to distill your knot list to say 10 or 12 of the most essential “must have” knots what would they be? Thanks for your input.
Standing Bear
Hi Standing Bear,
Many thanks for your question - let’s see - what purpose would these knots be used to fulfill (apart from being on the knot board)? Would they all have to be made in the same type of line? Braided or laid? Organic, wire or inorganic? Would this include or exclude bends, hitches, loops, bindings, lashings, finishings, splices, decorative knots or any other particular classification of “knots”? By your name and by the description you gave it appears that you may be preparing these young people for some kind of Scout testing - is there any guidance given there? ???
There are, I feel, plenty of other questions but the above list should help to narrow things down a bit - it seems a little like the media folks asking someone who has devoted their life to a cause “What should be in the fifteen seconds in which you describe your life’s work?” - I might need a moment to prepare an answer to that! ;D
SR
A good question Standing Bear! I understand what Squarerigger is saying and I am sure that 50 members have at least 51 opinions! Below is my personal list - the knots I hope I can still tie when my memory finally gives up. i’ve used all of these in the past couple of months but they might be all but useless if you have a particular interest eg climbing. The list is in no particular order and Ashley numbers are shown where the name might not be familiar (some are not in Ashley). I can already hear shouts of “Wot, no bowline” or Clove Hitch - sorry folks I don’t or very rarely use them esp in slippery synthetic rope. Oh, and can I take the reef knot as “the one everybody knows” and therefore have 12 without it? Otherwise it’s a baker’s dozen.
And these might be the ones I forget last!
Highwayman’s Hitch (Never for a lifeline it will be very dangerous! But good for hanging tools in the shed)
Crown Loops (Ashley #1097)
Carrick Bend (useful for knot 10. above as well as a nice bend in thick material)
Picket Line Hitch (Ashley #1676)
Barry
Every time a question like this comes up, I am reminded just how important it is to the future of the Guild to ensure that we take answering it with all seriousness, for the future of the Guild lays in taking every opportunity to effectively promote knotting and the use of rope and cord - especially to this age group. So, before we go popping off posting our personal favourites, remember the task of the teacher who is going to be introducing the use of rope cord and knots to individuals, brought up in a world of cable ties, superglue, adhesive-tape and bungee-cords.
Apart from ‘passing a test’, why on earth should they swap the ease of using Gaffa tape (which works and which they will almost certainly have to hand) for cord and knots which are hard to remember, and when you get them wrong, fall apart!!
Perhaps we should start with Lindsey’s first question “what purpose would these knots be used to fulfil” and work from there.
Pick a task (say wrapping a parcel) consider how it would be done today, then consider how it would be done with string and knots, then (most importantly) review the pros and cons of each method. At the end of the exercise, the students have learnt a new knot, but they have also learnt it in context and have been given the opportunity to consider how cord (or perhaps in this case, ribbon) might have been better.
Tying up bean poles in the garden – cable ties? Gaffa tape? or a simple constrictor in hairy garden string?
Tying on a load – Bungee cord? ratchet straps? (and yes, I have seen a load strapped on with Gaffa) or an Alpine loop and Z hitch?
Stabilising a Gazebo – Bungee straps? or Sliding Grip Hitch in 3mm braided polyester?
Fixing to a pole and don’t want it to slip – cable ties and Gaffa? or a KC Hitch using old bailer twine?
Temporary closure – Magnetic catch? or a Chinese button tied in elastic cord?
Which do you think would be a more valuable (and therefore memorable) challenge – ‘Bring me six examples of knots in use’ or, ‘Bring me a knotboard of ten knots’?
If someone brought me six effective uses for even the same knot, I would be more confident that they would be likely to use knots in their future than if someone brought me a pristine set of ten samples on a knotboard.
Derek
Hear here,
i am all for these things being passed on. A fair point has been maid, but don’t stop now…
Specific uses are good to know. But, also a potential to L-earning too. If there isn’t a specific use in mind, perhaps making a cohesive one up; like a camping scenario, cook out. A fun project, that the knots make more sense in actual use and one event reminds them of another, and another knot. We need a noose here for snare or closure, but over hear the eye can’t shrink so use bowline as standard. See how the Bowline with fixed/non-shrinking eye would be wrong for something requiring noose, and vice versa. Make a lil’written 4 category matching test, this needs a -noose- because it is a -shrinking eye-, my general purpose noose is a -dbl. noose- based on a(n) -anchor hitch- (a class f lacings which doesn’t work as well in -fishline-) or something… i all ways believe the individual threads of knowledge have more support as a woven fabric..
Also, pick groups of knots with similar lacing but different uses. Learn Sheetbend for this purpose, make it to itself to form Bowline, that around it’s self and you have a Running Bowline. See, you just learn that SheetBend and you get credit and control for 3 knots and their uses, dbl. Bolwine helps introduce Round turns rather than Simple Turns as target base formations and non-lazy way out of life philosophies. Much better payoff for effort of learning i think. Any of you pups ever seen the quick way to make a Dragon Bowline?
When you guys tie your shoes, do you tie a Dbl. Slipped Square(Sheet Bend with both legs unbent) or ol’ Granny? Tieing a Granny is without the purpose of a man crafting forces to his will, you ready to step up?
Or how you can get by sometimes with overhand, but same with a Round Turn is a much better Anchor, to self is a much better Noose. Clove, Constrictor, Transom, Buntline, Tautline and perhaps one of the best, round Turn and 2 halfs again shows the better power of round turn.
Or you might throw a Pile in their, for shear simplicity and power. The butterfly is unique and power full enough for a lesson of it’s own too, especially for like a 3:1 too. Learn timber, and when you’d make a Killick, and why; what changes to make you take that extra step? There is one that thinx all ya need is an Adjustable Hitch.
i think showing guys what pulleys can do is an eye catcher too. Like (if you know of such things and gear), placing a line in tree, anchoring, and have a pulley hagingig off of it and have the 2 smallest pick up the largest groan up etc. And giving it all texture to be bitten into with talks about men roving the oceans before gas and electricity, trusting their lives for 6 mos. or so to their grit, steel, ropes and wits to tame both wind and sea and allow them to be amongst the lucky that lived to tell about it. This land without land is where 90% of our knots come from…
Tape, ties and hose clamps are great too, perhaps in sum weighs can be more appreciated and utilized after these lessons; especially if mechanics and purpose are shown. So then it is easier to see where to slide in tape, hose clamps, ties etc. to suit same mechanics properly. But, in moving mechanics of work, snares, load tiedowns with minimal or constructible, widest purpose resources, i think rope has it; and it’s own lessons that it has whispered to many for millenniums. That number of listeners will be much less, these things lost if not more purposefully lent. That is why this is an important thread, to give a strategy of powerful, easy, lean knots for others to learn, especially kids. The amount asked to coldly grok without purpose can be foreboding and seemingly senseless; turning many away.
These things control large powers with simple devices(rope/knot/pulley/friction/angle); every change in them literally carries a lot of weight. A small change or inaccuracy, can totally change everything from ruler to disaster, fiend or foe. That is why a man steps up and tames this animal to his bidding. That is why i pass them to you; and invite ye to stand forward and be Master of this land…
i guess my target here is utility, enjoymeant, sense of purpose, cohesive with transitions etc. like the strength of rope itself; as well as the most bang for your L-eanring exepndicture/buck. Perhaps a few sessions of intro and making different knots. then a day of uses etc.
Good LUCK (Labour Under Controlled Knowledge)!
It depends on the field of use, but I’ll list a few. I could easily change my mind on a number of them. In no particular order:
Timber Hitch
Pile Hitch
Zeppelin Bend
Zeppelin Loop
Slipped Buntine Hitch
Butterfly Loop
Versatackle
Reef Knot
Constrictor Knot
Bowline
Sailor’s Hitch
Midspan Sheet Bend
All can be found here:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html
Standing Bear, could you please list your boards 25 knot? It would be interesting to see what you have and to have the members comment on whether they feel it covers all or most requirements
Thanks
Paul
That’s a good idea - as we don’t know what’s on the knot board we may well be suggesting that the pupils learn 25 knots and then have to learn 7 or 8 more which would surely make many lose interest.
Why indeed? As one who regularly uses tape and cable ties (especially garden ones which are removable) I have to say that ease of use and reliabilty are paramount to most people who are not infected with the “knotters’ virus”. But what do you do when you cannot find a cable tie but you can find a piece of cord or string? That might be an approach to encourage learning - not tying knots for its own sake (unless infected!) but first and foremost learning a useful and practical skill because you cannot always lay hand on the easy solution - a knot might even be the easy solution. In which case whatever one chooses as a list (including options as some will always find one knot easier than another) there has to be a real world practicality. If a neighbour asked me how to attach their washing line I would help them with one - or at most 2 - options recognising that they want an answer not a discussion. But if only one person in 1,000 is or is destined to be an enthusiast (and there must be that many whose hobby or profession requires the use of rope and knots) then there are 50,000 potential members in the UK alone - our mission is far from complete!!
Fine list of knots Roo, but why would I show an 11 yo the Zepplin, or worse, how to tie the Zepplin loop?
Granted, it is a great knot, but it is an ‘experts’ knot, and very easy to forget and get wrong, whereas the Fisherman’s, being just another wrap from the overhand to make the strangle is sooper easy to remember and almost ridiculously easy to turn into a good loop knot. It holds well and behaves well when joining dissimilar materials - If I wanted my 11 yo student to learn a knot which they would be likely to need, use and remember then it would be the fishermans rather than the Zepplin.
Are these your personal favourite twelve knots Roo or are they really the dozen you would choose to teach to kids who probably have no prior exposure to using these tools?
I am a knotting anorak and happen to think that the Zepplin is a great knot, but 11yo kids are unlikely to be knotting fanatics, they have much more important things to occupy their minds, so to get a knot to ‘stick’ is going to be a challenge for us to choose correctly – remember, they have to be useful and easy from the perspective of an 11yo, not from the perspective of a middle aged knotting nutter (AKA a ‘granddad’ to an 11yo).
Teaching six useful knots that these kids are going to remember and use into adulthood is going to be a real challenge, finding ways to teach their usefulness is going to be an even greater challenge because we don’t have the minds of 11yo’s anymore.
Perhaps we should consider starting in a different place – get a bunch of kids, show them some knots and uses for them, then ask them to come up with their own uses for them and then ask the kids which knot(s) the like the most and why – then we can teach that(those) knots to our new audiences.
Derek
Kids are better at learning new things than adults. If we all grew up learning the Zeppelin, we’d all see how symmetric and easy it is to tie and remember (unless you tie it one of the weird “alternative” ways). If you can remember b & q, you have it. Mmm. Barbeque. 
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html
I personally know someone who is horrible at remembering knots, but has no trouble with the Zeppelin Bend. The loop is just a bit more difficult. It’s mainly just retracing two parts of an overhand knot.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
I second the request to know what these 25 knots on the board are.
With 25 to work with, we might find a set that makes the learning easier
and somewhat profound–by which I mean that some relations between
knots, and some knot types & knot mechanics might be highlighted.
Thinking of a basic ten, hmmmmm:
Thanks for all your input. The group is kind of a Boy Scout/Girl Scout type outfit. So some but not all of them would have a camping or outdoor application. Someone came up with these knots for the board years ago so slowly I’m changing some of them. A couple years ago I changed the 1 half hitch to the prusik seeing if you could tie 2 half hitches you should be able to tie one. I’m in the process of changing the bindertwine bend to something else. The bindertwine doesn’t seem to be a very secure knot. I’d like to change it to the straight bend or alpine butterfly but haven’t made up my mind. Here’s the list of knots on the knot board:
Thanks again,
Standing Bear.
The aspect of application will help see given knots practised (or not),
but beyond that is the aspect of knot workings (“mechanics” I previously said), by which
one hopes that the student takes away some understanding of how knots can work: in the
Fisherman’s Knot, components slide into each other and jam secure; in Rosendahl’s bend
the opposed loaded lines intertwine and achieve a secure binding on each other; and
in the folding of rope into a bight (“doubling”) and then making a knot (e.g., Fig.8) in that
doubled line, one side becomes a useable eye.
I realize on reflection that my ten-set lacks much good for monofilament line;
and I had also at one point believed that the Dbl.Overhand/Strangle knot should
be given, in part as a means to securing the common, springy-slick polypropylene rope,
backing up other knots.
Someone came up with these knots for the board years ago so slowly I'm changing some of them. A couple years ago I changed the 1 half hitch to the prusik seeing if you could tie 2 half hitches you should be able to tie one.Although there's something about "Two Half Hitches" that mitigates against just 1, or 3, although the Two HH might be not so good a finish--I have watched in amazement at them slowly slipping out in some 8mm low-elongation nylon kernmantle under my weight! A third HH, or HHs put on in different orientation, or with a Slip-knot stopper rather than further HHs, might be just the ticket. I think that the set of 25 looks about like what we'd come up with if guessing what it was--pretty traditional.
I'm in the process of changing the bindertwine bend to something else. The bindertwine doesn't seem to be a very secure knot.By which I take this to be an Overhand knot tied w/two ends. This knot does have some security issues, but is also a knot favored in rockclimbing (not without continual controversy!) to join abseil ropes. (But I'd not be all so comfortable suggesting this to scouts, nevertheless.)
I'd like to change it to the straight bendI'd like to straighten out the misconceptions about this so-called "Strait" bend (it is re that sort): if you have access to the two ends, there is no reason to go making the asymmetric compromise that is the Butterfly bend (however named). Pick "Ashely's Bend" (Day's naming), #1452, or maybe better (re slack security) his overlooked #1425 (no, not "Hunter's"--which is "1425a"), or Rosendahl's bend (aka "Zeppelin", named by magazine writer)--which can be most satisfying.
or alpine butterfly but haven't made up my mind.Hmmm, there's a better version (or two) of this, got via the Slip-knot start, but for kids, and quicker tying, go for the Farmer's Loop--it's leapfrogging tying method is a sure winner!! (Three rings for Elven kings, ... --no, wait, it's: Three wraps around the hand. The middle wrap jumps over an outside wrap, which now is in the middle and so jumps over the other outer wrap, which then is in the middle and so jumps over the other outer once middle wrap, now BACK in the middle and so ... is pulled up to be the eye of the knot! What joy!)
Here's the list of knots on the knot board:1. square 2. clove hitch 3. slip knot [i]Often this name is ambiguous over whether a stopper or noose is meant: by Ashley, it is the stopper, and in handy use to make secure knots when tying with a bight end, there too (try a Half Hitch with bight and Slip Knot in bight).[/i]
timber hitch
For improved security, strength (my surmise), and staying in place, make a round turn (or 2)
of end around the S.Part before dogging the end back around itself–kind of a friction-hitch working.
surgeon’s knot
Not sure how helpful this is; it seems actually LOOSER upon completion than the square,
if tied against a surface to bind, and not as a bend (where the knot will shift significantly).
bowline
sheetbend [two words]
sheep shank [one word]
Here’s a great candidate for omission; you might use it (like #19, Trefoil") qua decoration, though?
prusik [c/should be ‘Prusik’–for Karl?]
constrictor
2 half hitches
lariat
Hmmm, the general structure (rope through eye knot)?; also particular eye knot–“Honda”/bowstring knot?
man harness [one word]
packer’s knot
anchor bend
carrick bend
figure 8
Meaning the stopper? As I noted previously, the Overhand stopper is more useful where one
needs to place it snug to some body (e.g., knotting the end of a whipping, or with the Half Hitch.
stevedore
THIS could be dropped in favor of Ashely’s Stopper.
trifoil stopper knot
[i]Well, with “stopper” here, maybe you mean Ashley’s, and not the decorative structure.[i]
lark’s head
cat’s paw
taut line hitch
belaying
[/i]Cleat hitch? (as we await Lynn’s seafaring report of Rock Hall findings)[/i]
fisherman’s knot
bindertwine bend
Wow, lots of good information you’re giving me. Here’s my top ten knot list.
and if I could add a #11 it would probably be the turquiose turtle because I use it about every day and my shoe laces never come undone.
Some of the knots I would like to change from the list of 25 I gave on the knot board:
Sheep shank-I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and have never ever used it.
Square knot- Other than light duty such as tying some bandages I don’t see a whole lot of use for it.
Sheet bend- I think the Zeppelin bend is much stronger.
Clove hitch- It’s all right for light duty but can come undone.
Surgeons knot
Slip knot
Trifoil stopper
Man harness-It’s easy to do it the wrong way if you’re in a hurry and it turns into a slip type knot.
Belay-most everyone knows this one anyway from tying flags to the cleat on a flagpole.
This is one grateful Tennessee ridge runner that has learned a whole lot of information from your posts. You really know your stuff!
Thanks,
Standing Bear.
A few random notes:
Don’t you tie your shoes or finish some lashings or bindings with some form of the Reef Knot? I would put less emphasis on strength of knots unless you’re talking about fishing line. Security and jam resistance is far more important for most rope-based applications. Besides, if you’re breaking your rope, something is very wrong.
You might look into the Uni-Knot for fishing applications. It’s quite versatile.
http://www.in-fisherman.com/magazine/guides/cg2003Sp_Uniknot/
i tried to make point about dbl. slipped square or granny as shoe tie. To me, a good lesson in doing things right, showing something they know, but don’t know they know, showing how small changes change the mechanics; but also shws how the simplest lacing can bind, jsut by being stabilized and sitting squarely. Stabilizing is important to these lacings to get proper lock. Line isn’t stiff and heavy like wood and steel to lock and jam; line is light and flexible and must be guarded more not to just flip free.
i could think of survival/camping uses for all the knots on board as a binding, positive, fun experience. i think targets should be fun, general knowledge, tradition, digestible, as well as a sound perhaps even inviting base for them to carry on such re-search on own if they liked.
Turquoise turtle is based off of square(plus round turn in one of the slipped bights). Should show how to make proper buntline and not just Turn + 2HH; and why if showing buntline.
Trucker’s hitch is a great 3:1 potential - frictions. But, is best as device to stiffen lines to resist bending, then bending to leverage for more tiedown power. Great on motor bike with front shox. Anchor 1 line low, then over handlebar through another low anchor and make 3:1 on that side (for 6:1 potential), compress shock hard, tip bike that way. Then go to other side and do same, taking away tip of bike. Then, use tails to bend both anchor lines as shown. The tighter you get first stage bindings,t he more the resistance to bend, the more leveraged return from the bending. As in all things in mechanical force, the empowermeant to raise forces is in the resistance to input! (No resistance, just gives distance gained from input, thereby no force buildup!)
This has been an interesting discussion showing that the 10 most useful knots are in fact 10 from maybe 30 - 50 depending on preference and potential usage. Would it perhaps be helpful to lay out a matrix of knots - down the left are users from occasional-when-I-have to through the various groups eg campers, climbers, boaters and across the top loop, bend, hitch etc. That way someone without ABOK (there must be somebody!) but with internet access say can look at their likely ten best knots (not the 10 best knots but knots we would as a Guild recommend? Many websites list knots by useage but for a novice this can be a confusing choice.
It’s also interesting to see what the commercial knot entrepreneurs are selling in this vein. Here is list picked at random from the sale of knot tying illustrations.
Bowline
Bowline on a Bight
Buntline Hitch
Clove Hitch
Constrictor Knot
Double Fisherman?s
Figure Eight
Mooring Hitch
Rolling Hitch
Sheet Bend
Square Knot
Tautline Hitch
Trucker?s Hitch
Water Knot
Just a sample of what’s sold. not my picks though.
In my opinion, the basic knots learned in the Boy Scouts have served fairly well in what to learn in the beginning.
SS
Given the ages that you have quoted, and assuming that “hitches” also count, here’s the list I come up with off the top of my head. It is oriented towards offering a variety of options and applications that are all quite simple.
Square Knot
Surgeon’s Knot
Lap Knot
Adjustable Grip Hitch
Clove Hitch
Boom Hitch
Figure Eight
Bowline
Munter Hitch
Round Turn and Two Half Hitches
Alpine Butterfly
Harness Bend
“Bump”
i think this is still an important topic to explore. Perhaps requalify in different ways…
i assume we are all talking about working class knots.
Next, all from varied backgrounds; and then views of how things should work in that scope. Perhaps we could find more agreement in defining different specialties of lacings; then types of “machines” needed in that specialty, even in their approximate order of relevance. Then, we could ‘argue’ which ‘machine’ lacing was best for each need of each scope. Then, perhaps what was best overall collection??
Special-ties would be like boating, fishing, shipping, climbing etc. ‘Machines’ needed would for specific purposes like: stopper, friction hitch, rope bend, shrinking eye (noose), non shrinking eye(bowline), power increase etc.
This is all pretty contrary to my own philosophy of categorization by mechanix; but view that is more proposed towards study than introduction. This is kinda an internal workings back of the house / business end vs. face side/front of the house type imagery. So, i still think that the front door view should be left invitingly open generously to all comers(guests?); but then discarded as not really fitting whenst one settles down to really working to understand knots and become part of the inside workings of this thing which we due hear, themselves. Especially when one talks about young scouts etc.; but really anyone. This/ these arts should not die out any further. But, probably will; and in the time of our passing thru, plotting purpose-fully against such an end might be all we can do!
