Top ten most useful knots.

Practical Knots
41

Mariners roll in their watery graves with each Spydery use of “bitters”: for the origin of that isn’t about
an ultimate end, but about a rough third of rope at the bitts, vs. at the opposite end, or the rope spanning
the distance between ::slight_smile:

What irks me re the oft’-seen use of the Tensionless H. in making top-rope rockclimbing anchors
is that it begs the question “What will you do for an encore?!”–i.e,. super strong HERE (not the
bitter end, but around a tree, the barker one :smiley: ), but what about at the climber’s end eye?
AND it’s more of a PITAss to set up, tediously wrapping rope around & around (3 arounds should
suffice, points out OnRope1’s MythBuster). AND-#2 it is harder on the tree, bringing in full force
on one side, with ample material stretch to see the rope move under load against the bark
(although the many wraps might l00k like padding).
Whereas the simple solution comes by just passing a bight of rope (simpler if one has a LONG
rope and fetching the end would be a bother) around the tree and tying off with a bowline and
appropriate securing of that.
Usually these soooo-strong anchor makers complement their silliness by insisting on LOCKING
'biners in the eyes of the Fig.8 eyeknots to clip to the Ten.H.'s SPart–preventing clever squirrels
and other miscreants from opening a regular 'biner, no doubt!!

:-\

42

‘Mariners rolling in their watery graves’ - they should be pleased that their idiotic terminology did not die out with them and is still finding some semblance of use long beyond its context of creation.

As for the squirrel proof locked bina. Have you ever been climbing?

Many times I have been on a pitch that was within my physical ability and skill level, yet something in my subconscious insisted that I could not climb it. Then is when the trust in ones second, the tree anchor belay and the squirrel proof bina come into play and deal an equally illogical counter argument to the subconscious. Then, with adrenalin rushing, you execute the climb faultlessly and clock up another memorable achievement.

Long live the squirrel proof locked bina, illogical I know, but Priceless.

Derek

43

Locked krabs are real important when a person might be ‘rolling around’ at different angles etc.; especially with line running through krab(that could even spin a lock, thus other lock strategies). And we all ways must think in terms of a fall incident too, where such jostling and even pressures on gate/keeper (by stick, belt, gut etc.) could open the krab. Even if line doesn’t come out, the open gate will weaken the structure. this could be especially important during impacts on line and/or when loading is away from solid back ‘spine’ of krab properly, but more towards (or even across axis of) gate. Thereby the warnings about using a cinching tight noose/shrinking type eye to krab connection; as opposed to a fixed eye (like bowline) that could then leverage krab with open gate… Bowline to Krab Warning. We must maintain this fail-safe frame of mind, bordering out injuries and fatalities from most forces, weakness and human failing; striking the system at once…

i think some of this (Tensionless etc.) is about making each module/machine piece as worthy as possible, as a mantra, pushing the art form like that etc. Especially, when life is on the line. so even though, there’d be a sense to making all positions in the chain as strong as the other (because chain is only as strong as weakest point), why purposefully make a specific point weaker than ya have to? Especially, when other parts of the line might be bent/bent here and there for whatever amount of time, but the anchoring deformations will be at that same point all the time/ it is guaranteed point of constant loading if any loading (whether climber is at top or bottom of line).

But, once again, i think the greatest gift of Tensionless, is in modeling other rigs/knots after it’s principals! And, thus another point for full familiarity with Tensionless(by using it)!

Perhaps i’ve taken sum liscence with the nomenclature, but i mean the Bitter End or termination of force(s), the nip trapped/lock parts, and kinda abbreviated ya know like Bowl, RT etc. to fit; and let these things (of knots) be carried on/ not die and even be explored more(as real aim).

What purposes should these holy 10 cover?

Fixed Eye, shrinking eye /noose, power (truckers), mending/binding/anchoring closure, fishing, friction hitch, midline eye, stopper, bending lines together, quick release, throwing knot, water/beer for flat line (or tubing?), dbl. slipped square for shoes?, rescue seat?

Does the Adjsutable Hitch (that i’ve worked in flat/webbing quite well) fit for all the things acclaimed as perhaps all-around champ (if’n ya had to pick 1)?

44

… charged with boosting the economy. Beyond that, as I indicated, they are a complementarily
ridiculous part of a too-clever-by-half anchor system for TR–period. (Consider against all that
spew for a biner the very name here: “tensionLESS”–why, no knot at all should be necessary
(the no-knot can withstand less tension beautifully). (And your earlier post argued why the
unconstrained TH was better on change of direction.)

;D

45

All i can tell ya is that hanging 80’ off hard ground and looking down to see an open krab is a scary feeling… And overkill is for underkill!

(k)Now in all unfairness, an anchor position like this would be less subject to all those forces; but at same time, less inspectable. So if ya got’em, use’em or double up etc. What does it take fer that peace of mind?

46

If you are looking “down” at a TR anchor you are upside-down.
At some point, you have made decisions of “good enough”–such as using only the “one” rope,
not two (rockclimbers do have the option of using two, “twin” ropes, e.g.–2x (7.5-8mm) vs. 1 x (9.2-10.5mm)).
You have used “only” 11mm or whatever and not half-inch or more, and so on. A competing structure here,
again, is simply to pull a bight (or end) of rope around the tree and tie off with a Bowline of some sort,
which omits consuming a 'biner (locking or otherwise) and wrapping the rope a few times around the
tree. There is a neat use of the Fig.8 structure here, too.

As for the TH, might as well just tie off directly to the rope. A 'biner isn’t coming undone; maybe its shiny
appeal might depart with a thief–the biggest, albeit slim chance of failure.

Now, I don’t think that the Ten.H. is a good candidate for Top Ten (and am not wedded to “Ten”).

(-;

47

Ummmmm i meant looking down locally at your belt and seeing open(even ‘locked’ with spin gate) or leveraged krab, not remotely at support. The remote, uninspectable location; would get better setup than inspectable i believe… At least with my sorry carc-azz on the line it does! If gate on anchor (etc.) is pointing up something can fall on it, if facing down, it can be pressed into something etc. Different angles, impacts, tension cycles, slack etc. can combine with outside events at any time, just not everytime. It all depends on where you choose to draw the line at(ummm so to speak); for at what point your own life is accesible, free to the forces seeking it out of you!

48

Just out of interest, have the IGKT decided not to endorse the Surrey 6, and if they have, does anyone have any idea just why ‘they’ made this decision and who was involved in making it?

Derek

49

I could venture a guess. Imagine the following scenario:

Joe: The IGKT recommends a figure 8 loop with a round turn for a hitch.

Bob: They sound official, let’s give it a try. I assume the round turn is for holding some tension.

Joe: But we have to tie a figure 8 knot first, then we can hold some tension with the round turn.

Bob: Ok, I’ve made the figure 8, I’m holding some tension with the round turn, but I’m having a little trouble rethreading the figure 8 as it has collapsed under the tension.

(10 minutes later)

Bob: Arrggh. The IGKT doesn’t know what it’s talking about.

Joe: Well, maybe we can try it in a application where we can keep things loose while tying.

Bob: hmmm. OK. …Gosh, it sure uses a lot of rope.

(after use).

Bob: Hey, I can’t get this thing untied!

Joe: #%^@-ing IGKT!

50

So now we are ONLY talking about hitches that can be tied under tension rather than hitches that are tied to later reliably take tension ??

OK, for that subset of hitches (tension tied) the figure 8 with a round turn is a nonsense, but then so also are many other recognised and valuable hitches. In this subset you obviously need to make hold of the tension first using some form of wrap or turns and then you are into the variants of the tensionless and ‘tension reduced’ means of fastening the end or providing the residual tension after friction has eaten away most of it.

I hitch my climbing rope to my harness with a fig 8 rethreaded loop. I don’t care if it binds, I really do not intend to put it under tension, but if I fall, I am not going to worry that I will have a job breaking it back open. But perhaps most importantly, I am tying it when there is no line tension, at least until I dress and set the knot before climbing.

Would you have any other guesses what conversation might have ensued for hitches clearly intended to be tied without being under tension?

Bob and Joe are a clever pair of numbnuts aren’t they !!

Derek

51

I have just been granted the ‘honour’ of introducing a small group of 35 Cub Scouts (8yo to 11yo) to the world of knots and cord.

They don’t have to know any particular set of knots, so although I will quickly show them the knots they will need to learn when they go up from Cub Scouts, but I won’t be spending time teaching them these.

Instead, I will be showing them some uses for cord and rope based on a tiny set of knots which are very easy to tie and hopefully even easier to remember.

First, I will show them the power of friction and how I can hold and lower any one of them using only my pinkey finger (multiple round turns), then I will get them to hold and lower their Leader the same way.

Then I will show them how to braid a wrist band using only one strand, decorating it as they go, and finish it with interlocking OH knots to let them open it to slide on and then close it to keep it in place. We will go through how to make a better fixing with the double OH knot (Strangle) and finish up with a challenge to make a band which best stands for Cub Scouts (judging this for themselves).

Keeping with the Overhand knot I will show them how to join two cords with the OH and the slipped OH, then how to join two cords of different size with two double Overhands (Fishermans). Moving on we will tie up parcels using a slipped Oh variant of the parcel knot and then move on to make a loop, a double loop and an in-line treble loop all based on the OH. Having made an inline treble OH loop we will use it to tie a load down really tight or tension a tent pole using the leverage of the Z hitch. Having put some load on the OH loop, I will then show them where its ‘hinge’ is in order to undo it with ease. If any of them show interest in wanting to learn the B&Q knot because it is a good knot and great to untie, then we might touch on it.

Having started on the theme of force, I will show them how to get a good hold on a rope using the Marlinspike hitch (the slipped OH again). We will see how many it takes to drag the Leader sitting on a board just using hands holding a rope, then how many can do it with MS hitch handles. Then just for fun, I will show them the log winch so they can see how to use rope as a lever and be able to see how they can drag not only their Leader, but several Cub Scouts on the board all at the same time.

Then finally I will show them two ‘gripping’ knots. The first will be the ultra easy KC hitch in case they need to get a hold onto a slippy pole or bar, and then the terrible Constrictor, sooper easy and sooper holdie, but be careful, because this knot does not have a hinge, so it won’t undo easily. As a treat, I will show them how the Constrictor turns in a tug into the Myrtle loop or hitch, and we will have a challenge to think of uses at home and in the garden for these knots and where they might be useful in Summer camp.

After this, it will be time to cover some warnings - how knots make cord weak (break string in my hands) how knots can change like the Constrictor but in a bad way - the Reef and the trick Whatknot, and perhaps a magic knot trick

I would like to give them some more challenges - anyone have any ideas?

Derek

52

Nope. Read Bob and Joe’s whole conversation.

I hitch my climbing rope to my harness with a fig 8 rethreaded loop. I don't care if it binds,
You mean you don't care if it jams. You also mean that you don't care [i]much[/i]. I doubt you enjoy trying to untie jammed knots. Even you don't use the round turn with it. Does anyone?

Anyway, if you are recommending a small set of knots for a wide range of use, it doesn’t make sense to recommend a jam-prone knot. I compliment C. Ashley for being keenly aware of this in his book, as he’d make note of such problems and even made up an icon in warning.

53

Painful & pointless as it was, I did. (The bit about “hitch” played no role, really.)
Keep in mind that a sizable portion, perhaps majority, of the rockclimbing world uses
the Fig.8 eyeknot for tying in, and they take occasionally rather hard falls on it;
they do–variously–whine or wince about untying it, but it remains a favored knot.

:-\

54

I understand. It’s a standard among a group of users that don’t usually put much strain on their knots compared to most other users, so it’s somewhat understandable. Even among many of that subset of users, it’s a love-hate relationship at best, as they at least get a flavor of it’s jam proneness… as you note.

Once again, none of them use it with a round turn as a “hitch”. Such usage makes the Surrey Six creator(s) look particularly out of touch.

55

Why do you keep bringing this up? I explained this “hitch” term above; you (& I) might not
use it that way (“tying to something–directly or with eyeknot”), but it has been in some places,
where–again–the point seems to be the emphasis is on the tying. But you can query Howard
about the classification; maybe the Surrey group will adjust their presentation.
If you want them to be in touch, as Ma Bell used to say, reach out and touch them.
It’s a two-way street.

–dl*

56

Setting aside the terminology issue for a second, what is the point of the round turn used with a Figure 8 Loop? If there is a point, it seems to be lost to everyone, as nobody uses the Figure 8 Loop with a round turn.

It’s my assertion that it’s likely a mere affectation to make the “hitch” misnomer look more plausible.

57

Gentlemen,

I would greatly appreciate your taking this discussion to a different new post as it seems to have drifted off the original topic. Maybe something along the lines of hitches Vs round turn? This looks like developing into a seminal question being answered. Just a thought… :slight_smile:

SR as Moderator

58

A real angle in what would be the top 10 greatest hits; would be if they were at the same time an introduction into lacing knots, or as end of journey recommendation in their own. Along with some of the other factors, like age, applications covered, general line and hardware assumed and perhaps environment (icy seas vs. southern farm etc.) etc. i still think a ‘recipe’ for knots to de-scribe them and their mechanical properties could help learn and understand them better and quicker.

Modified Animator, 4 knot menu

59

Hmmm, put in this way, think of how such lists are compiled otherwise: by a(n objective) counting!

I started then aborted putting up a post here with my assessments of what various user-groups actually
use. Arborists, e.g., have I think greater dependence upon friction hitches of the sort that grip & release.
Rockclimbers are more likely to use a device for ascending a rope, and possibly re-use the device in
a gear-hauling mechanism; cavers, also!? Commercial fishermen for the most part don’t use friction
hitches; where they theoretically might, in joining snoods to longlines, they can get away with some
regular hitch, whose positioning is secured along the line by tucking the end (sometimes SPart)
through the lay. (And although I even have photos of the Rolling Hitch being used on high-riser
buoys, those knots are (further) secured to the relatively thin pole-object with a fine line lashing
(and that might be bound w/electrical tape, to boot).)

So, “Top Most Useful” look over to “Top Most USED”!?

The Bowline will make appearances in climbing & boating; the Overhand eyeknot will be in ComFishK.
and sometimes in climbing, and boating. The Clove H. is much in ComFishK and in rockclimbing,
and boating (but with notable variation in detail; more likely a ring hitch in rockclimbing and a
pile hitch in boating; ComFishK will secure the tail).

:slight_smile:

60

Really ?

The Constrictor is a GREAT binding knot when set by itself with no loading to either of its ends, but as a hitch ? Surely that is just asking for trouble ?

If a Constrictor is loaded in any way other than by opposing pulls, then it is prone to simply winding in the direction of that pull and can decompose into a very unstable form.

Does anyone else use the Constrictor as a hitch?

Derek